Hey guys I have a real hardened agnostic friend at school named Vincent who I want to answer a series of questions for to get him thinking. He says he is good at analyzing things and he has been recently calling the bible archaic and stuff like that. I need your help to consolidate pieces of wisdom and evidence to effectively answer this question. He said he would be happy if I brought any material to discuss with him and if he replies.
I will post it to you guys.
What gives credence to the idea that the Old testament has a divine touch whereas all other ancient story texts are false?
Give it your best.
What makes the bible any different than other old stories?
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wrain62
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What makes the bible any different than other old stories?
Last edited by wrain62 on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
Fulfillment of prophecy.wrain62 wrote:Hey guys I have a real hardened agnostic friend at school named Vincent who I want to answer a series of questions for to get him thinking. He says he is good at analyzing things and he has been recently calling the bible archaic and stuff like that. I need your help to consolidate pieces of wisdom and evidence to effectively answer this question. He said he would be happy if I brought any material to discuss with him and if he replies.
I will post it to you guys.
Why do we think the Old testament has a divine touch whereas all other ancient story texts are false?
Give it your best.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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wrain62
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
Byblos wrote:Fulfillment of prophecy.
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
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wrain62
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
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jlay
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
I think Josh McDowell does a fine job of consolidating the arguments and evidence to answer these questions, in "The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict." The negative is that they are in more of a text book format. (Not a negative for me.) His book deals with the other more basic defenses of the OT, and then deals with the prophetic in quite a bit of detail. I would say exhaustive.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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puritan lad
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
The answer is that without the Bible, God's revelation of Himself, we would not be able to know anything in a meaningful way. Ask him on what authority he will call Scripture archaic? Somewhere in the discussion, he will reveal his own ultimate authority and basis for knowledge. Should be easy pickings from there.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
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Proinsias
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
Does that not work both ways? If the bible is not God's revalation of himself, or not a particularly special revelation, then somewhere in the discussion it's on your authority to assign the notion, whichseems frankly ridiculous to me, that without it we would not be able to know anything in a meaningful way.puritan lad wrote:The answer is that without the Bible, God's revelation of Himself, we would not be able to know anything in a meaningful way. Ask him on what authority he will call Scripture archaic? Somewhere in the discussion, he will reveal his own ultimate authority and basis for knowledge. Should be easy pickings from there.
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MarcusOfLycia
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
If "Basis for knowledge" = "Philosophy" = "Worldview", it seems to make total sense.Proinsias wrote:Does that not work both ways? If the bible is not God's revalation of himself, or not a particularly special revelation, then somewhere in the discussion it's on your authority to assign the notion, whichseems frankly ridiculous to me, that without it we would not be able to know anything in a meaningful way.puritan lad wrote:The answer is that without the Bible, God's revelation of Himself, we would not be able to know anything in a meaningful way. Ask him on what authority he will call Scripture archaic? Somewhere in the discussion, he will reveal his own ultimate authority and basis for knowledge. Should be easy pickings from there.
-- Josh
“When you see a man with a great deal of religion displayed in his shop window, you may depend upon it, he keeps a very small stock of it within” C.H. Spurgeon
1st Corinthians 1:17- "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel””not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power"
“When you see a man with a great deal of religion displayed in his shop window, you may depend upon it, he keeps a very small stock of it within” C.H. Spurgeon
1st Corinthians 1:17- "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel””not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power"
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puritan lad
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
To clarify,
Christians know that the Bible is God's Word because God has revealed that to us. God's revelation (both natural and special) is the only valid source of knowledge. Of course, unbelievers (of all sorts) reject revelational epistemology, and thus are limited to either empiricism, idealism, or rationalism, neither of which can account for objective knowledge (idealists, in theory, don't even believe in objective knowledge. In practice, they can't help themselves).
In short, the unbeliever, because he rejects revelational epistemology, has no basis by which he can claim to know anything.
Christians know that the Bible is God's Word because God has revealed that to us. God's revelation (both natural and special) is the only valid source of knowledge. Of course, unbelievers (of all sorts) reject revelational epistemology, and thus are limited to either empiricism, idealism, or rationalism, neither of which can account for objective knowledge (idealists, in theory, don't even believe in objective knowledge. In practice, they can't help themselves).
In short, the unbeliever, because he rejects revelational epistemology, has no basis by which he can claim to know anything.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
//covenant-theology.blogspot.com
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com/
//covenant-theology.blogspot.com
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com/
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Gman
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
It's story of redemption, Christ (or G-d) dieing for His bride in order to re-unite the 12 tribes of Israel back to His house of Israel.wrain62 wrote:Hey guys I have a real hardened agnostic friend at school named Vincent who I want to answer a series of questions for to get him thinking. He says he is good at analyzing things and he has been recently calling the bible archaic and stuff like that. I need your help to consolidate pieces of wisdom and evidence to effectively answer this question. He said he would be happy if I brought any material to discuss with him and if he replies.
I will post it to you guys.
What gives credence to the idea that the Old testament has a divine touch whereas all other ancient story texts are false?
Give it your best.
In a nutshell..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Canuckster1127
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
The earth's crust is archaic but we still walk on it and it still holds us up. The fact that something is old has no bearing on whether it is true or not. Archaic in that context is not a criticism, it's an indication of the mindset of the one looking for reasons to discredit something without doing the hard work of examining it and suspending judgment until that work is done.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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wrain62
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
Okay. So itis essentially a fallacy to discredit a work simply because it is archaic.Canuckster1127 wrote:The earth's crust is archaic but we still walk on it and it still holds us up. The fact that something is old has no bearing on whether it is true or not. Archaic in that context is not a criticism, it's an indication of the mindset of the one looking for reasons to discredit something without doing the hard work of examining it and suspending judgment until that work is done.
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
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wrain62
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
Points in the thread to answer the question so far:
Defense of the validity and special meaning of the prophesy and history, perfect.
Any comparison works with the old testament vs. other mythologies? Archeological confirmations I can find online here and other places?
Anything you want to bolster or add I would be grateful for. Thank you guys.
Fallacy to critisize because of age.Canuckster1127 wrote:The earth's crust is archaic but we still walk on it and it still holds us up. The fact that something is old has no bearing on whether it is true or not. Archaic in that context is not a criticism, it's an indication of the mindset of the one looking for reasons to discredit something without doing the hard work of examining it and suspending judgment until that work is done.
40 Authors over a period of more than a thousand years tell one story about the unifying(or communifying) covenant between Isreal(all mankind as well?) and God.Gman wrote:It's story of redemption, Christ (or G-d) dieing for His bride in order to re-unite the 12 tribes of Israel back to His house of Israel.
In a nutshell..
His basis for knowing anything would probably not be reliable, but I am having a hard time understanding. Explain more about the nature of this objective knowledge from God and its relationship with the bible.puritan lad wrote:The answer is that without the Bible, God's revelation of Himself, we would not be able to know anything in a meaningful way. Ask him on what authority he will call Scripture archaic? Somewhere in the discussion, he will reveal his own ultimate authority and basis for knowledge. Should be easy pickings from there.
jlay wrote:I think Josh McDowell does a fine job of consolidating the arguments and evidence to answer these questions, in "The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict." The negative is that they are in more of a text book format. (Not a negative for me.) His book deals with the other more basic defenses of the OT, and then deals with the prophetic in quite a bit of detail. I would say exhaustive.
Defense of the validity and special meaning of the prophesy and history, perfect.
Any comparison works with the old testament vs. other mythologies? Archeological confirmations I can find online here and other places?
Anything you want to bolster or add I would be grateful for. Thank you guys.
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
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Gman
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
Yup..wrain62 wrote:40 Authors over a period of more than a thousand years tell one story about the unifying(or communifying) covenant between Isreal(all mankind as well?) and God..Gman wrote:It's story of redemption, Christ (or G-d) dieing for His bride in order to re-unite the 12 tribes of Israel back to His house of Israel.
In a nutshell..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Ivellious
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Re: What makes the bible any different than other old storie
My response to what you all have said...
Fulfillment of prophecy? I'd like to see that. And, if indeed that makes the Bible perfect, why isn't Nostradomisity the ultimate truth? And saying your prophecies are "special" doesn't really hold water either...because everyone says that about their predictions.
Because God told us it was true: Well, Zeus "told" the Greeks he was real...Almost every religion says somewhere that it's teachings/stories are true because some divine entity said so. and they could equally claim that because they believe their God/Gods are superior, that their revelation is best. So that argument is kind of flat. And, for the record, barring any of you being the pope, God did not reveal the Bible's truth to you, he did so (according to the Bible) to long-dead people. The archaic argument is really only applicable here because you, just like every other religion, can't actually say your deity walked up to you and told you so, he did so to the people who wrote the Bible.
Saying it's a brilliant story of redemption and saving humanity is cool, but there are lots of ancient stories about that (many older than the Bible) that you can point to as well, so again this doesn't say anything about Christianity, just that it's stories sound similar to a ton of stories from the ancient world.
The point about us knowing nothing without the Bible is absurd...We knew and learned lots before it and lots afterward too...but it's not all because of the Bible. Are you saying everything prior to the Bible was meaningless knowledge? Yes, Christianity led to some cool advancements in art, literature, etc. but the entirety of our knowledge of existence is not meaningless without Christianity.
Not saying there aren't points out there to back up your idea, but these are my counters to what's here. I guess it just boils down to you guys are saying that your Bible is "special" compared to everything else despite having nearly equal parts...It's just that you can't argue that logically because it can be countered with every other religion throughout history. So on those points, I can see your friend winning that battle at least.
Fulfillment of prophecy? I'd like to see that. And, if indeed that makes the Bible perfect, why isn't Nostradomisity the ultimate truth? And saying your prophecies are "special" doesn't really hold water either...because everyone says that about their predictions.
Because God told us it was true: Well, Zeus "told" the Greeks he was real...Almost every religion says somewhere that it's teachings/stories are true because some divine entity said so. and they could equally claim that because they believe their God/Gods are superior, that their revelation is best. So that argument is kind of flat. And, for the record, barring any of you being the pope, God did not reveal the Bible's truth to you, he did so (according to the Bible) to long-dead people. The archaic argument is really only applicable here because you, just like every other religion, can't actually say your deity walked up to you and told you so, he did so to the people who wrote the Bible.
Saying it's a brilliant story of redemption and saving humanity is cool, but there are lots of ancient stories about that (many older than the Bible) that you can point to as well, so again this doesn't say anything about Christianity, just that it's stories sound similar to a ton of stories from the ancient world.
The point about us knowing nothing without the Bible is absurd...We knew and learned lots before it and lots afterward too...but it's not all because of the Bible. Are you saying everything prior to the Bible was meaningless knowledge? Yes, Christianity led to some cool advancements in art, literature, etc. but the entirety of our knowledge of existence is not meaningless without Christianity.
Not saying there aren't points out there to back up your idea, but these are my counters to what's here. I guess it just boils down to you guys are saying that your Bible is "special" compared to everything else despite having nearly equal parts...It's just that you can't argue that logically because it can be countered with every other religion throughout history. So on those points, I can see your friend winning that battle at least.