Evidence for God from Science

When I was a little boy in Sunday school I thought there was much, much more documentation of the life of Christ than I now think there is. I have serious doubts now about the whole thing. I imagine I will always have those doubts. However if my doubts are wrong I do not want to be damned and I want to be right with Christ. If my doubts are wrong must I convince myself and Christ I no longer have these doubts to be saved? As you probably can tell I am more self-centered than most people and more than most want to do things for my own benefit with maybe too little concern for other factors, even regarding my thoughts on religion. Would Jesus accept me if that never changed?

I think the greatest evidence aside from the bible is Pontius Pilates letter to Caesar describing Jesus’ appearance and stating the charges the Jews held against him.

Or maybe the codex’s that they found a few months ago that were aged 70 A.D and depicted Jesus’ death on the cross.

ultimate777 wrote:When I was a little boy in Sunday school I thought there was much, much more documentation of the life of Christ than I now think there is. I have serious doubts now about the whole thing. I imagine I will always have those doubts. However if my doubts are wrong I do not want to be damned and I want to be right with Christ. If my doubts are wrong must I convince myself and Christ I no longer have these doubts to be saved? As you probably can tell I am more self-centered than most people and more than most want to do things for my own benefit with maybe too little concern for other factors, even regarding my thoughts on religion. Would Jesus accept me if that never changed?

Doubt does not negate faith, in fact they can co-exist in harmony. The question is are your doubts reasonable. Given the volume of evidence for Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, I would say doubt is unreasonable and can be dismissed. But that is something you need to decide for yourself.

ultimate777 wrote:When I was a little boy in Sunday school I thought there was much, much more documentation of the life of Christ than I now think there is. I have serious doubts now about the whole thing. I imagine I will always have those doubts. However if my doubts are wrong I do not want to be damned and I want to be right with Christ. If my doubts are wrong must I convince myself and Christ I no longer have these doubts to be saved? As you probably can tell I am more self-centered than most people and more than most want to do things for my own benefit with maybe too little concern for other factors, even regarding my thoughts on religion. Would Jesus accept me if that never changed?

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
Romans 8:16

Was your faith based on the proposition that there was a lot of documentation? The reason I ask is it sounds like a strange thing for a child to reason. "I'll believe in Jesus because there is all kinds of documentation." From a guy who has worked in children's ministry for over 10 years, the line of reasoning sounds odd.
Historically, there really isn't anything more sound than the life of Christ.

If you have truly trusted in Christ, you are truly saved. Obviously to trust in Christ, we must believe he exist. We must believe His message. (John 5:24) There are a few reasons why doubt could creep in. Let's see what scripture says. "That person (who doubts) should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do." James 1:7-8 Being out of fellowship is an area where doubt will invade. Also, a reality of doubt is that you never came to trusting faith in Christ to begin with. Did you have the witness of the spirit that you are a child of God?

As far as you changing. Well although you might be able to will yourself into change, it won't save you or make you more saved. What plus Jesus is enough? Faith, plus you being unselfish? That isn't the gospel.

ultimate777 wrote:When I was a little boy in Sunday school I thought there was much, much more documentation of the life of Christ than I now think there is. I have serious doubts now about the whole thing. I imagine I will always have those doubts. However if my doubts are wrong I do not want to be damned and I want to be right with Christ. If my doubts are wrong must I convince myself and Christ I no longer have these doubts to be saved? As you probably can tell I am more self-centered than most people and more than most want to do things for my own benefit with maybe too little concern for other factors, even regarding my thoughts on religion. Would Jesus accept me if that never changed?

I used to be in the same situation. As I grew up, I started realizing that there are a ton of inconsistencies in the Christian faith and that there really is nothing supporting Christian beliefs over other religious views. I used to think that I should believe in Christianity, even though I knew that it was illogical and even though it seemed more like a myth to me the more I thought about it. I didn't want to be damned to hell for not believing in Christianity and I thought, "What's one Sunday a week for the very very very small chance that Christianity is correct?" Then i realized that I would still be screwed if muslims/hindus/raelians/egyptians/romans/greeks were correct. All those religions are just as credible as Christianity. And if none of the religions are correct and there is no afterlife, then you would be wasting part of your very finite life worshiping a myth and you would change the shape of your life to fit into what that religion expects of you, rather than using your short life for what you want. Primitive humans needed religion to explain the world. We don't need those myths anymore. Your doubts are not wrong. You have those doubts for a reason. Free yourself from religion and you will realize how much better life can be with a free heart and a free mind.

Steve wrote:

ultimate777 wrote:When I was a little boy in Sunday school I thought there was much, much more documentation of the life of Christ than I now think there is. I have serious doubts now about the whole thing. I imagine I will always have those doubts. However if my doubts are wrong I do not want to be damned and I want to be right with Christ. If my doubts are wrong must I convince myself and Christ I no longer have these doubts to be saved? As you probably can tell I am more self-centered than most people and more than most want to do things for my own benefit with maybe too little concern for other factors, even regarding my thoughts on religion. Would Jesus accept me if that never changed?

I used to be in the same situation. As I grew up, I started realizing that there are a ton of inconsistencies in the Christian faith and that there really is nothing supporting Christian beliefs over other religious views. I used to think that I should believe in Christianity, even though I knew that it was illogical and even though it seemed more like a myth to me the more I thought about it. I didn't want to be damned to hell for not believing in Christianity and I thought, "What's one Sunday a week for the very very very small chance that Christianity is correct?" Then i realized that I would still be screwed if muslims/hindus/raelians/egyptians/romans/greeks were correct. All those religions are just as credible as Christianity. And if none of the religions are correct and there is no afterlife, then you would be wasting part of your very finite life worshiping a myth and you would change the shape of your life to fit into what that religion expects of you, rather than using your short life for what you want. Primitive humans needed religion to explain the world. We don't need those myths anymore. Your doubts are not wrong. You have those doubts for a reason. Free yourself from religion and you will realize how much better life can be with a free heart and a free mind.

I challange you to enlighten us of these supposed inconsistencies, since you are making the claim the burden of proof is on you.

Steve wrote:

ultimate777 wrote:When I was a little boy in Sunday school I thought there was much, much more documentation of the life of Christ than I now think there is. I have serious doubts now about the whole thing. I imagine I will always have those doubts. However if my doubts are wrong I do not want to be damned and I want to be right with Christ. If my doubts are wrong must I convince myself and Christ I no longer have these doubts to be saved? As you probably can tell I am more self-centered than most people and more than most want to do things for my own benefit with maybe too little concern for other factors, even regarding my thoughts on religion. Would Jesus accept me if that never changed?

I used to be in the same situation. As I grew up, I started realizing that there are a ton of inconsistencies in the Christian faith and that there really is nothing supporting Christian beliefs over other religious views. I used to think that I should believe in Christianity, even though I knew that it was illogical and even though it seemed more like a myth to me the more I thought about it. I didn't want to be damned to hell for not believing in Christianity and I thought, "What's one Sunday a week for the very very very small chance that Christianity is correct?" Then i realized that I would still be screwed if muslims/hindus/raelians/egyptians/romans/greeks were correct. All those religions are just as credible as Christianity. And if none of the religions are correct and there is no afterlife, then you would be wasting part of your very finite life worshiping a myth and you would change the shape of your life to fit into what that religion expects of you, rather than using your short life for what you want. Primitive humans needed religion to explain the world. We don't need those myths anymore. Your doubts are not wrong. You have those doubts for a reason. Free yourself from religion and you will realize how much better life can be with a free heart and a free mind.

Steve, it took you two weeks to come back, and yet you still repeat the same old crap. You, of course, ignore the fact that Neo-x and I refuted all this nonsense you wrote in August. So, either address it, or quit trolling.

By the way, you're wasting your "very finite life" arguing with "primitive humans".

No point in messing with Steve's post. I doubt he is going to look at critically. Do we really need hit and run posts? This is a discussion forum.

And if you are right Steve, so what? What inherent meaning is there in being non-religious?

jlay wrote:No point in messing with Steve's post. I doubt he is going to look at critically. Do we really need hit and run posts? This is a discussion forum.

Yup. He is long on assertion and short on argument.

Steve wrote:

ultimate777 wrote:When I was a little boy in Sunday school I thought there was much, much more documentation of the life of Christ than I now think there is. I have serious doubts now about the whole thing. I imagine I will always have those doubts. However if my doubts are wrong I do not want to be damned and I want to be right with Christ. If my doubts are wrong must I convince myself and Christ I no longer have these doubts to be saved? As you probably can tell I am more self-centered than most people and more than most want to do things for my own benefit with maybe too little concern for other factors, even regarding my thoughts on religion. Would Jesus accept me if that never changed?

I used to be in the same situation. As I grew up, I started realizing that there are a ton of inconsistencies in the Christian faith and that there really is nothing supporting Christian beliefs over other religious views. I used to think that I should believe in Christianity, even though I knew that it was illogical and even though it seemed more like a myth to me the more I thought about it. I didn't want to be damned to hell for not believing in Christianity and I thought, "What's one Sunday a week for the very very very small chance that Christianity is correct?" Then i realized that I would still be screwed if muslims/hindus/raelians/egyptians/romans/greeks were correct. All those religions are just as credible as Christianity. And if none of the religions are correct and there is no afterlife, then you would be wasting part of your very finite life worshiping a myth and you would change the shape of your life to fit into what that religion expects of you, rather than using your short life for what you want. Primitive humans needed religion to explain the world. We don't need those myths anymore. Your doubts are not wrong. You have those doubts for a reason. Free yourself from religion and you will realize how much better life can be with a free heart and a free mind.

As they others have said, these things have been addressed very well already and you haven't responded to those responses. However, because I'm in the mood, I think I'll also go through, step by step, and address what you said.

Steve wrote:I used to be in the same situation. As I grew up, I started realizing that there are a ton of inconsistencies in the Christian faith and that there really is nothing supporting Christian beliefs over other religious views.

Well, this is true if you ignore historical, archeological, philosophical, and scientific evidence. There is quite a bit of evidence to support Christianity over, say, the other major religions of the world (Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam). I wonder, for all the inconsistencies (that you don't point out) with Christianity that you see, how much time have you actually spent examining other religions for the same?

Steve wrote:I used to think that I should believe in Christianity, even though I knew that it was illogical and even though it seemed more like a myth to me the more I thought about it.

Can't help you if you wanted to will yourself to believe something you 'knew' was false. But again, the only things you've said to back your 'knowledge' up were feelings, and its hard to argue with feelings.

Steve wrote:I didn't want to be damned to hell for not believing in Christianity and I thought, "What's one Sunday a week for the very very very small chance that Christianity is correct?"

So, even when you called yourself a Christian, you didn't know what being a Christian was. This is an important point, and I hope everyone takes note. No one equates 'going to church on Sunday' with 'being a Christian'. And, most certainly, no Christian believes going to church once a week saves you from anything.

Steve wrote:Then i realized that I would still be screwed if muslims/hindus/raelians/egyptians/romans/greeks were correct.

Incorrect. If you knew anything about the other religions, you'd know saying you were 'screwed' is incorrect: Allah is not a forgiving god and his universe would be much crueler, Hindus believe in reincarnation and you'd have an infinite supply of other attempts ahead of you, (I don't know what 'raelians' are), the Egyption religion believed the sun was a god (and I think we know enough now not to believe that), the Romans/Greeks didn't have much of an afterlife for anyone, so by not following them, nothing would happen.

Steve wrote:All those religions are just as credible as Christianity.

All those religions are as credible as Atheism. See, I can say horrendously stupid things without any evidence, too.

Steve wrote: And if none of the religions are correct and there is no afterlife, then you would be wasting part of your very finite life worshiping a myth and you would change the shape of your life to fit into what that religion expects of you, rather than using your short life for what you want.

Not according to Pascal's much more knowledgeable view of Christianity. But even without referencing him, I can tell you that it wouldn't matter what you believed. Its not like you'd have any control over it, being nothing more than a deterministic system of chemical reactions. I hope you've spent some time contemplating the eternal death of all of existence, since you clearly haven't spent much time contemplating religion. Eternal death means it doesn't matter what you spend your time doing. You'll be dead anyway!

Steve wrote:Primitive humans needed religion to explain the world. We don't need those myths anymore.

You really don't want to get into a moral war with the ancients on these types of issues. We've learned in the past 100 years that the stability of the civilized ancient world blows away our modern world in a lot of areas. We have not progressed intellectually as much as the snobbery you allude to indicates. However, since as others point out, the burden of proof is on you, please tell us (without using any religious explanation), how the universe began? What is the meaning of it? Where did it come from and where will it go? What is the soul? How did mankind get here, considering the very stringent limits mutations have and their inability to account for the majority of evolutionary history? Please, tell us. We aren't 'primitive' humans anymore.

Steve wrote:Your doubts are not wrong. You have those doubts for a reason. Free yourself from religion and you will realize how much better life can be with a free heart and a free mind.

Those doubts are far more honest than your commentary on them. And what exactly is 'freeing' about adopting a purely deterministic view of the universe? How much freedom do you have in your mind? I have the freedom to believe it isn't deterministic. You do not. I have the freedom to not think about an afterlife, but you do not have the freedom to ignore it because you must oppose it. I have the freedom to think of a world that isn't just a physical system of cause and effect, you do not even have the freedom to think, because thoughts in your universe are simply electrical charges and your consciousness is an illusion. I have the freedom to love, you don't have the freedom to believe that love is real. I have the freedom to forgive, you don't have the freedom to think that forgiveness is anything but an evolutionary advantage or method to serve oneself. I have the freedom to care about others, you have no freedom to believe others exist as anything but complex arrangements of atoms. My mind is free to think that it exists. Your mind is chained to a belief that won't let it look at itself in an intellectual mirror.

Do not start the topic of 'free thought' with a Christian unless you want to look like a fool.

General Patton had a great word for people like steve, if I remember correctly I think it was "coward"

I would love to see you try to respond to Marcus’s dismantlement of your post but I assume you will not because of the word I stated in the first sentence.

After not responding to the first half dozen people who dismantled (good word there) his first volley of posts, I wasn't expecting him to return. He did return with another few posts along the same lines, although I was right that he never replied to earlier responses to his first volley. I won't say that its pointless to reply to him, but it sure feels like a futile effort.

Its quite natural to have doubts when we base our beliefs on faith, simply because many people think of faith as "blind faith" but i t isn't.
Faith should be based on reason and rational and should never be blind.
So I say to you, to research your faith, see the reason and rational behind it.
Read some apologetics and books about the history of Christianity, the writings of Blomberg, Metzger, Craig, Habermas, Wright, etc.
There is a reason and rational behind the core doctrines of Christ, about love, forgiveness, compassion and grace.

I have found that many people will allow themselves to get influenced by doubters and atheists with what seems like their overwhelmingly logical arguments and yet, these same people never hear or read or research that arguments to those arguements and there are SO MANY.

I don't know if it is "intellectual laziness" or just not know where to start on doing actual research about faith OUTSIDE of what one hears in church or skims through in the bible.

The only doubts I have now are in the atheistic Darwinist religion... It's a complete travesty to believe in it.