Do you believe a Christian can have a philosophical faith?

Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
User avatar
MarcusOfLycia
Senior Member
Posts: 537
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:03 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: West Michigan, United States
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Do you believe a Christian can have a philosophical fait

#16

Post by MarcusOfLycia » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:58 am

The point is, we don't work our way into heaven. God saves us.
-- Josh

“When you see a man with a great deal of religion displayed in his shop window, you may depend upon it, he keeps a very small stock of it within” C.H. Spurgeon

1st Corinthians 1:17- "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel””not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power"

Jonouchi Katsuya
Established Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:27 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Do you believe a Christian can have a philosophical fait

#17

Post by Jonouchi Katsuya » Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:03 am

MarcusOfLycia wrote:The point is, we don't work our way into heaven. God saves us.
Then why be good in Christianity?

(I actually sent what you said to one of my Christian friends and she is very confused as well as to why you would say being a good person is worthless and means nothing)
Hi I am a Buddhist and I seek enlightenment. I do not know everything. I do not pretend to know everything. I desire strongly to discuss the Bible as you see it. Please correct me when I get something wrong.

DannyM
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3301
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: A little corner of England
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Do you believe a Christian can have a philosophical fait

#18

Post by DannyM » Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:35 am

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:
MarcusOfLycia wrote:The point is, we don't work our way into heaven. God saves us.
Then why be good in Christianity?

(I actually sent what you said to one of my Christian friends and she is very confused as well as to why you would say being a good person is worthless and means nothing)
Why not be good as Christians? Recognising the absurdity of trying to gain salvation via good works does not equate to being against being a good and decent person. You make a fundamental error if you believe one leads to the other.

Marcus is clearly telling you that, as a Christian, nothing we do could possibly earn us a pass to salvation. But does this mean Christians everywhere stand idle as pain and suffering afflict so many?
credo ut intelligam

dei gratia

User avatar
jlay
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3616
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:47 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 9 times

Re: Do you believe a Christian can have a philosophical fait

#19

Post by jlay » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:18 pm

And sure we can all go to the kingdom of heaven, but there is nothing that says how many lives we live till we get there. Our soul is eternal anyway.
Actually there is. Hebrews 9:27

Trying to rationalize pantheism or buddhism as being compatible with Christianity is self-defeating in so many areas. Look at the core tenets of such beliefs and you quickly see the fallacy in this line of reasoning.
Then why be good in Christianity?
Jon, what is good?
We need to fundamentally understand what is truly good. And if something is truly good, then by what scale is its goodness measured? When Christ says, 'apart from me you can do nothing,' and also, "there are none good but God," we learn that a person is incapable of doing good in and of themselves. This doesn't mean a person can't do a good deed, but means that without the objective moral compass of a moral law giver, a person is incapable of finding moral north on their own. God is the truth, and God has established a law of logic by which we can know good and pursue it, and in turn, reject evil.

There are some Christians who say that no one can do any good who is not a Christian. I don't think that is quite how I would put it, and obviously it creates some confusion. I think it is rare that a person actually does a completely selfless deed. Extremely. However, without the moral law giver, they would have no magnetic moral north to indicate they were pointed in the right direction to begin with. If we examine much of what we consider good, at the root we will find evil. A lot of charity is done out of guilt. A person feels bad, and thus they attempt to do things to balance it out. This is centered on self, and although may result in 'good' things, such as charity, it isn't itself a good deed. It is a selfish deed that resulted in a favorable outcome. But most people are going to say that this is a good deed. A great example in the US are those who give to charity because they receive benefits in tax deductions, or notoriety. Or, a husband who gives his wife a gift because of what she will think of him.

A believer has nothing left to earn. A believer is saved to good works. Have you ever had a child do something for you, just to please you. Just because they want nothing more than to honor you in love. That is good. I hope this helps you understand where some are coming from here.

A Christian doesn't do good to earn favor, but because he already has favor. God makes us righteous, and then we are free to work out of who God says we are in Christ. So, the only good is accomplished when one repents of self, and seeks to forgo doing good. It sounds like a conflict until one realizes that good is not the result of trying to achieve good. A parent won't step in front of a bullet for their child because they want to do a good deed. They do it because they cherish their child's life more than their own. The result of this is good. That is why charity and love are so woven together. The result of good is not trying to follow the moral law, but loving the moral law giver. Jesus broke this down in John 14.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 228 times
Been liked: 106 times
Contact:

Re: Do you believe a Christian can have a philosophical fait

#20

Post by neo-x » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:36 pm

jlay » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:18 am

And sure we can all go to the kingdom of heaven, but there is nothing that says how many lives we live till we get there. Our soul is eternal anyway.

Actually there is. Hebrews 9:27

Trying to rationalize pantheism or buddhism as being compatible with Christianity is self-defeating in so many areas. Look at the core tenets of such beliefs and you quickly see the fallacy in this line of reasoning.

Then why be good in Christianity?

Jon, what is good?
We need to fundamentally understand what is truly good. And if something is truly good, then by what scale is its goodness measured? When Christ says, 'apart from me you can do nothing,' and also, "there are none good but God," we learn that a person is incapable of doing good in and of themselves. This doesn't mean a person can't do a good deed, but means that without the objective moral compass of a moral law giver, a person is incapable of finding moral north on their own. God is the truth, and God has established a law of logic by which we can know good and pursue it, and in turn, reject evil.

There are some Christians who say that no one can do any good who is not a Christian. I don't think that is quite how I would put it, and obviously it creates some confusion. I think it is rare that a person actually does a completely selfless deed. Extremely. However, without the moral law giver, they would have no magnetic moral north to indicate they were pointed in the right direction to begin with. If we examine much of what we consider good, at the root we will find evil. A lot of charity is done out of guilt. A person feels bad, and thus they attempt to do things to balance it out. This is centered on self, and although may result in 'good' things, such as charity, it isn't itself a good deed. It is a selfish deed that resulted in a favorable outcome. But most people are going to say that this is a good deed. A great example in the US are those who give to charity because they receive benefits in tax deductions, or notoriety. Or, a husband who gives his wife a gift because of what she will think of him.

A believer has nothing left to earn. A believer is saved to good works. Have you ever had a child do something for you, just to please you. Just because they want nothing more than to honor you in love. That is good. I hope this helps you understand where some are coming from here.

A Christian doesn't do good to earn favor, but because he already has favor. God makes us righteous, and then we are free to work out of who God says we are in Christ. So, the only good is accomplished when one repents of self, and seeks to forgo doing good. It sounds like a conflict until one realizes that good is not the result of trying to achieve good. A parent won't step in front of a bullet for their child because they want to do a good deed. They do it because they cherish their child's life more than their own. The result of this is good. That is why charity and love are so woven together. The result of good is not trying to follow the moral law, but loving the moral law giver. Jesus broke this down in John 14.
Well said, bro :clap:
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

Post Reply