Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

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cslewislover
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#31

Post by cslewislover » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:52 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:.
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I'm not sure what Zeb's post is about...
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Yeah, it's off-topic.
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Zebulon
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#32

Post by Zebulon » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:03 pm

cslewislover wrote:I'm not sure how to view the length of your post, either, Zeb. It's so almost absurdly long. It would seem better to list some things, then give a paragraph of more verse ref.s. I'm not sure what the other mods think of this. At a certain point, it's like spamming or something.
I agree, it is hard to take for Christians the way I bring how I see things Cslewislover... but:
cslewislover wrote:And Zeb, there's plenty of sources on reading how we got our bible. There is a lot of historical and archaeological proof for us to know that the bible is highly accurate.
I know and I have been making a lot of research on more sources than plenty. But not only from Jewish sources. The coming of Christ the Messiah is depicted and written in many other places than from the Jews only.

This is what makes me a stronger believer in Jesus-Christ...

Zebulon

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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#33

Post by cslewislover » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:23 pm

But based on your question about the scribes, I can see you haven't read a lot of scholarly sources about that.

Like I said, why don't you take a look at the verses where God describes or brings up His love for Israel, and for people, instead of looking at the accounts of wars which will of course mention people being killed.

This site believes in seeking the truth, and it believes the bible is accurate because of all the research in history and science that has gone into that subject.

The bible has the words of Christ, other sources do not. If other religions talk of a savior coming, that's great and shows a revelation. But the bible is what holds the words of Christ. The messiah comes through the Jews, and that's where His word is.

If you want to debate about the errancy or inerrancy of scripture, you'll need to start a new thread.
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B. W.
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#34

Post by B. W. » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:42 pm

Bav, we have been thru this before so here is a quote from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia for Abraham's Bosom / sheol and Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words for Paradise quoted below:
From - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

Abraham's Bosom


booz´um (κόλπος Ἀβραάμ, k ólpos Abraám; κόλποι Ἀβραάμ, k ólpoi Abraám): Figurative. The expression occurs in Luk_16:22, Luk_16:23, in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, to denote the place of repose to which Lazarus was carried after his death. The figure is suggested by the practice of the guest at a feast reclining on the breast of his neighbor. Thus, John leaned on the breast of Jesus at supper (Joh_21:20).

The rabbis divided the state after death (Sheol) into a place for the righteous and a place for the wicked (see ESCHATOLOGY OF OLD TESTAMENT; SHEOL); but it is doubtful whether the figure of Jesus quite corresponds with this idea. “Abraham's bosom” is not spoken of as in “Hades,” but rather as distinguished from it (Luk_16:23) - a place of blessedness by itself. There Abraham receives, as at a feast, the truly faithful, and admits them to closest intimacy. It may be regarded as equivalent to the “Paradise” of Luk_23:43. See HADES; PARADISE.


ESCHATOLOGY OF OLD TESTAMENT

4. The Hebrew Sheol

It is not necessary to do more than sketch the main features of the Hebrew she'ōl (see SHEOL). The word, the etymology of which is doubtful (the commonest derivations are from roots meaning “to ask” or “to be hollow,” shā'al), is frequently, but erroneously, translated in the Revised Version (British and American) “grave” or “hell.”

It denotes really, as already said, the place or abode of the dead, and is conceived of as situated in the depths of the earth (Psa_63:9; Psa_86:13; Eze_26:20; Eze_31:14; Eze_32:18, Eze_32:24; compare Num_16:30; Deu_32:22). The dead are there gathered in companies; hence, the frequently recurring expression, “gathered unto his people” (Gen_25:8; Gen_35:29; Gen_49:33; Num_20:24, etc.), the phrase denoting, as the context shows, something quite distinct from burial. Jacob, e.g. was “gathered unto his people”; afterward his body was embalmed, and, much later, buried (Gen_50:2).

Poetical descriptions of Sheol are not intended to be taken with literalness; hence, it is a mistake, with Dr. Charles, to press such details as “bars” and “gates” (Job_17:16; Job_38:17; Psa_9:14; Isa_38:10, etc. ). In the general conception, Sheol is a place of darkness (Job_10:21, Job_10:22; Psa_143:3), of silence (Psa_94:17; Psa_115:17), of forgetfulness (Psa_88:12; Ecc_9:5, Ecc_9:6, Ecc_9:10). It is without remembrance or praise of God (Psa_6:5), or knowledge of what transpires on earth (Job_14:21).

Even this language is not to be pressed too literally. Part of it is the expression of a depressed or despairing (compare Isa_38:10) or temporarily skeptical (thus in Ecclesiastes; compare Ecc_12:7, Ecc_12:13, Ecc_12:14) mood; all of it is relative, emphasizing the contrast with the brightness, joy and activity of the earthly life (compare Job_10:22, “where the light is as midnight” - comparative). Elsewhere it is recognized that consciousness remains; in Isa_14:9 the shades (rephā'ı̎m) of once mighty kings are stirred up to meet the descending king of Babylon (compare Eze_32:21). If Sheol is sometimes described as “destruction” (Job_26:6 margin; Job_28:22; Pro_15:11 margin) and “the pit” (Psa_30:9; Psa_55:23), at other times, in contrast with the weariness and trouble of life, it is figured and longed for as a place of “rest” and “sleep” (Job_3:17; Job_14:12, Job_14:13).

Always, however, as with other peoples, existence in Sheol is represented as feeble, inert, shadowy, devoid of living interests and aims, a true state of the dead (on Egyptian Babylonian and Greek analogies, compare Salmond, op. cit., 54-55, 73-74, 99ff, 173-74). The idea of Dr. Charles, already commented on, that Sheol is outside the jurisdiction of Yahweh, is contradicted by many passages (Deu_32:22; Job_26:6; Pro_15:11; Psa_139:8; Amo_9:2, etc.; compare above).
From Vines Dictionary concerning

Paradise


paradeisos (G3857) is an Oriental word, first used by the historian Xenophon, denoting "the parks of Persian kings and nobles." It is of Persian origin (Old Pers. pairidaeza, akin to Gk. peri, "around," and teichos, "a wall") whence it passed into Greek. See the Sept., e.g., in Neh_2:8; Ecc_2:5; Son_4:13. The Sept. translators used it of the garden of Eden, Gen_2:8, and in other respects, e.g., Num_24:6; Isa_1:30; Jer_29:5; Eze_31:8-9.

In Luk_23:43, the promise of the Lord to the repentant robber was fulfilled the same day; Christ, at His death, having committed His spirit to the Father, went in spirit immediately into Heaven itself, the dwelling place of God (the Lord's mention of the place as "paradise" must have been a great comfort to the malefactor; to the oriental mind it expressed the sum total of blessedness). Thither the apostle Paul was caught up, 2Co_12:4, spoken of as "the third heaven" (2Co_12:3 does not introduce a different vision), beyond the heavens of the natural creation (see Heb_4:14, RV, with reference to the Ascension). The same region is mentioned in Rev_2:7, where the "tree of life," the figurative antitype of that in Eden, held out to the overcomer, is spoken of as being in "the Paradise of God" (RV), marg., "garden," as in Gen_2:8.
Basically Abraham's Bosom and sheol of Luke 16:16-31 point out a place for the righteous and unrighteous. Not too hard to understand...
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#35

Post by Zebulon » Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:32 am

B. W. wrote:Basically ...a place for the righteous and unrighteous. Not too hard to understand...
Basically the Purgatory of Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims (some) and Gehenna of Jews?

Then I have a question for you B.W. but it may not belong to this tread so I will start the tread: Casted to Earth and Hell.

Thanks, and kindly.

Zebulon

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