Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

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Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#1

Post by derrick09 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:13 pm

Hello fellow believers, recently I came accross a website called www.truthaboutdeath.com. It's a sister site to the Amazing Facts ministry, I"m not sure if they are related to seventh day adventists or not but they hold to the idea of soul sleep or temporary ahnillation until the second comming or resurrection of the dead. There are several verses they use to support this idea. They are Ecclesiastes 12:7 Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10, James 2:26, Job 27:3, Job 17:13, Job 4:17,Job 14:12,21, Ezekiel 18:20, I Timothy 6:15,16, John 5:28,29, Acts 2:29, 34, Psalm 115:17, and 2 Peter 3:10. Meanwhile, the other view, that humans have a immortal and immaterial soul and immediately go to heaven or hell at death, that view is supported by these scriptures, 2 Cor. 5:8 and Matt. 17: 1-8. I welcome any comments to this debate/discussion. Currently I'm personally unsure on this, even though right at this moment I'm leaning towards the view of soul sleep. But anyway, let me know what you all think. Thank you all for your time and God bless. :wave:
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#2

Post by cslewislover » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:20 pm

Hi Derrick. I too, am immediately interested in this topic and will be looking into it. As soon as I find out more (because the research I did yesterday basically turned up nothing) I'll post it.
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#3

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:55 pm

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I'm about 98% sure Amazing Facts is a 7th Day Adventist ministry.

I think we've had this discussion on this board at least once before. Since I am SDA, I do believe there is more evidence for "soul sleep" than there is that at death a person goes to heaven.

1. It is clear that death is an enemy and is to be destroyed.
If death were the time of being transported to heaven, it wouldn't be/isn't an enemy. 1 Cor. 15:26

Having said that, I believe that the moment of death and the moment of the Christ's 2nd coming will seem to the dead as an instant. No scripture to support other than Christ equating death to sleep. John 11:12-14
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#4

Post by cslewislover » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:20 pm

I've always heard and read that our soul goes to heaven after we die, and that we get our bodies back - but glorifed - when Jesus returns. It was the one verse in 1 John that did not seem to confirm this for me that made me want to look into this topic. I'll post the verse below. First, I want to include here what GodQuestions?.org wrote about it. It's short and has some verse references. Bav, I'm not trying to debate with you, just so you know, but I'm sure you'll want to put your 2 cents in, lol.

Question: "What does the Bible say about soul sleep?"

Answer: “Soul sleep” is a belief that after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of “soul sleep” is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).

Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14). As can be clearly seen in Luke 16:19-31, neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. It could be said, though, that a person's body is “sleeping” while his soul is in paradise or Hades. At the resurrection, this body is “awakened” and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Present-day defenders of soul sleep include the Seventh Day Adventist church, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, and others.



The verse that bothers me is: 1 John 3:2,

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Footnotes: a. 1 John 3:2 Or when it is made known
(Bible Gateway)

In any commentary I've seen so far, it just says that we'll be like Jesus when he returns. But, the problem, at least with me, is that when we are in heaven or paradise, we will be with Him and thus see Him then. This verse makes it sound like we will not see Him until he returns. The footnoted alternate translation makes no difference, since the verse is referring to us - believers - seeing him as He is, not the rest of the world.

So I want to look into this further, but I thought I'd post this for the time being.
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#5

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:50 pm

cslewislover wrote:I've always heard and read that our soul goes to heaven after we die, and that we get our bodies back - but glorifed - when Jesus returns. It was the one verse in 1 John that did not seem to confirm this for me that made me want to look into this topic. I'll post the verse below. First, I want to include here what GodQuestions?.org wrote about it. It's short and has some verse references. Bav, I'm not trying to debate with you, just so you know, but I'm sure you'll want to put your 2 cents in, lol.

Of course...I will put my 2 cents in. We don't need to debate, but we can exchange our ideas and beliefs with support.

GodQuestions?.org wrote:Question: "What does the Bible say about soul sleep?"

Answer: “Soul sleep” is a belief that after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of “soul sleep” is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).

First of all from an SDA standpoint. We do not believe that humans have some separate "soul" entity that is us apart from the body. In other words, the WHOLE person IS a soul. So we do not beleive that the soul sleeps...technically. What we believe is that dirt + breath of life = soul/body/person. The absense of either returns to their original state...dirt/dust and the breath of life returns to God. To believe that a "soul" was added to dirt and the breath of life or Dirt + Breath + Soul = Person/body is to add something non-existent in scripture. It would also mean that you and I existed prior to this life with God and that He...while EVERYONE WAS ALREADY WITH HIM, sent all us "humans" down to live humanly and thus God lost that which was already saved and with Him. Kind of circular and nonsensical.

As Adventist Christians. We believe as Genesis reads. Genesis 2:7

Secondly on this point, if it is true that we face judgement the moment we die...what/where was Lazarus for 4 days? If he was in heaven, what cruel joke did God play on Lazarus who had already gained access to heaven...yet the scripture plainly states no man has yet seen.

Third. It is my belief that we face judgement the moment we accept Christ. Judgement is for those that have not. We have passed from death to life even though we haven't died physically yet.

Fourth. If judgement is at death, then everyone must die...however we know not everyone will die before Christ comes. I guess there will be a second ceremony just before assending up to heaven?

That's good for now. Just points from my SDA view, crazy as you all may think.
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#6

Post by cslewislover » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:06 pm

Hey Bav. I was just going to post this, or thinking of it, and you had posted. So, I think it's good to post and ask what you think. It includes a couple of verses that are in the paragraph you quoted. It seems pretty clear about the body and soul (or whatever you want to call what "we" are) are separate. What do you think of this?

As far as my inquiry, it's clear we are with the Lord after we die. I didn't doubt that at all, I just wondered about our form.

The judgment thing is interesting. When we accept Christ, all our sins are forgiven and so there is no judgment; however, we must ask forgiveness of the sins we commit after being adopted by God. It's my understanding, then, that the judgment takes place at the end - rewards given for believers and condemnation for unbelievers. That's in a very small nutshell, but I'm sure you're already aware of that theology. There is the verse about our deeds surviving or not (depending on their quality), on "that day" (1 Cor 3:13), which I take to mean The Judgment.

Anyway, here is that set of verses I mentioned above. One thing I love about this discourse is that it says for what purpose we're made! I always forget that verse, but maybe I won't now. "Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come" (2 Cor 5:5).

2 Corinthians 5:1-10 (New International Version)

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#7

Post by cslewislover » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:00 pm

cslewislover wrote:I've always heard and read that our soul goes to heaven after we die, and that we get our bodies back - but glorifed - when Jesus returns. It was the one verse in 1 John that did not seem to confirm this for me that made me want to look into this topic.

1 John 3:2,

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Footnotes: a. 1 John 3:2 Or when it is made known
(Bible Gateway)

In any commentary I've seen so far, it just says that we'll be like Jesus when he returns. But, the problem, at least with me, is that when we are in heaven or paradise, we will be with Him and thus see Him then. This verse makes it sound like we will not see Him until he returns. The footnoted alternate translation makes no difference, since the verse is referring to us - believers - seeing him as He is, not the rest of the world.
Ok, so the Eerdman's Commentary on the Bible claims for this verse what I was wondering, but then it seems like the translation must be . . . off or not sure? This is what it says, in part:

"Children of the Father experience alienation from the world, which fails to recognize them as such just as it failed to recognize Jesus as the Son. The ambiguity of this reality in the eyes of the world leads to the affirmation that when the Son is manifest the reality of the children of God will be made manifest because they will see the Son as he is. This must take place at his coming, when those who see him will be like him" (p 1519).
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#8

Post by B. W. » Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:51 pm

derrick09 wrote:Hello fellow believers, recently I came accross a website called http://www.truthaboutdeath.com. It's a sister site to the Amazing Facts ministry, I"m not sure if they are related to seventh day adventists or not but they hold to the idea of soul sleep or temporary ahnillation until the second comming or resurrection of the dead. There are several verses they use to support this idea. They are Ecclesiastes 12:7 Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10, James 2:26, Job 27:3, Job 17:13, Job 4:17,Job 14:12,21, Ezekiel 18:20, I Timothy 6:15,16, John 5:28,29, Acts 2:29, 34, Psalm 115:17, and 2 Peter 3:10. Meanwhile, the other view, that humans have a immortal and immaterial soul and immediately go to heaven or hell at death, that view is supported by these scriptures, 2 Cor. 5:8 and Matt. 17: 1-8. I welcome any comments to this debate/discussion. Currently I'm personally unsure on this, even though right at this moment I'm leaning towards the view of soul sleep. But anyway, let me know what you all think. Thank you all for your time and God bless. :wave:
Amazing Facts adheres to SDA system and believes in Soul Sleep - my publicist almost had an interview for me on the show. The Host and I briefly corresponded during this time. He was very gracious and simply said such topic would be too controversial as we hold differing views and he respected all his viewers views on the subject andnot wanted to alienate viewers. The Interview was declined by the Host. He is very gracious and has a copy of my book — not sure if he read it, but he was very gracious and respectful.
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#9

Post by B. W. » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:18 pm

Hi derrick09,

Most of the scripture passages cited in your first post are taken out of context ignoring others that state otherwise. Doctrines such as soul sleep, annihilation and universalism do not make a distinction between the bodily resurrection (never citing the reason for it) and what happens immediately after one dies as cited in...

Hebrews 9:27, “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment…” NKJV

Compound this with Matthew 27:51, 52, 53 — and ask, what happened to these folks if soul sleep were true?

Note the comment in 2 Samuel 14:14, "For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him…” NASB

God does not take away life. Also God does not deprive sinners life, but through His mercy and grace He made a plan so that sinners will not be cast from Him which was fulfilled by the work of the Cross of Christ later on after this event occurred.

The principle is clear — God does not deny life! Even to horrible sinners but made a way of salvation as the gospel clearly teaches. This does not infer universal salvation because God 'plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him' and the way is through Christ (John 3:15-16)

Then note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14, “For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.” ESV

Comes before verses 15-18 and states - through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep — before they receive their resurrected bodies!

Then note 1 Thessalonians 5:10: “who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.” ESV

Believers are not soul sleeping. After you die as a believer in Christ you go and reside with him. The Old Testament does teach that the part that returns to God is the Shade / spiritual essence of a person.

Of this essence as Job 26:5 states for the unrighteous dead: “5 The dead tremble under the waters and their inhabitants. 6 Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.” NKJV / ESV

The Shades (dead) tremble — look up that word in your own bible reference sources is a word that denotes living cognition after death — not slumber.

Compound this with Isaiah 48:22 and Isaiah 57:21 — in God's own words — there will be no peace (rest) for the wicked. Soul sleep and annihilation grants both the wicked peace and rest. Who is right? God or the doctrines of soul sleep annihilation?

Where do the wicked go? Isaiah 24:22 sets forth where… and Revelation 20:13, 14 - states that this prison will be thrown in the lake of fire at a future time yet to come.

The Lake of fire is not annihilation nor universal salvation as it is written:

2 Samuel 14:14, "For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him…” NASB

If they rejected Christ than they rejected God's plan that would have saved them and thus as Jesus clearly teaches in the gospels — suffer eternal punishment because there is NO rest — peace for the wicked…

Ezekiel 32 also describes the prison in which the wicked wait till the day of the resurrection of the dead when the dead will receive a body remade from the dust again.

Some will wake to the realization of everlasting contempt /shame and those accepting God's plan of salvation fully realize the reality of everlasting life with God. - Daniel 12:2 -

God keeps his word, does what he says, and never breaks a promise, the bible boldly teaches; therefore, Genesis 1:26-27 is kept and Revelation 21:1 fulfilled defining the reason for the bodily resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous as well as God's character made known — proven true.

While waiting, those that have died, either reside with the Lord or in the prison. There is the judgment one faces immediately after one dies and another that commutes the sentence at the great white throne. People honestly get these two mixed up and do a poor study on the usages of the word grave, dead, sheol, hell, hades, pit, fire, destruction, ruin, and gehenna as well.

Why? It is difficult to grasp people in a place called hell forever but I challenge you that you do not grasp the depths of sin (what it is / does completely), nor the deepness of God who is perfect in all his ways — and proves it to all. He reneges on no gift, keeps his word, and never will deny who he is.

Sin seeks to entrap God in various ways so that he denies some attribute of his character and thus attempts to overthrow God. — note Isaiah 26:10 - Think of how common criminals — game the system and you'll gain insight into what I mean. The Doctrines of Soul Sleep, Annihilationism, Universalism attempt the same; yet, are blind to this action due to deep seated emotional feelings.

If you but only could understand a little more of who God is by studying his character and nature as revealed plainly from the bible, then you realize the need for an eternal hell, Satan's attempts to trap God in not being able to keep his word, and God's just patient actions stacking the evidence against him irrefutably! You would shed such doctrines as soul sleep, annihilation and universalism.

Ecclesiastes 8:11, 12, 13

Ecclesiastes 11:9, 10

Ecclesiastes 12:14

Ecclesiastes 3:14, 15, 17, 18, 21

Deuteronomy 32:22

Matthew 25:41, 46
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#10

Post by Zebulon » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:05 am

Enlightning, as usual B.W.
B. W. wrote: Ecclesiastes 18, :
I said to myself concerning the sons of men, “God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts.”
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Thanks also for this as I was looking for a direct connexion from OT towards Revelation's passage concerning the Image of the beast

By the way I visited your web site. It is clean, easy to navigate and, should I say cool! (I know what I am talking about, I build websites for a living :mrgreen: )

Kindly,

Zebulon

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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#11

Post by derrick09 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:41 pm

Hey BW thank you for responding. Personally, I'm for the immortal soul going immediately to heaven or hell, that's what I've always been taught and hope to be true. I've just been faced with this challenge from other believers who believe in soul sleep I just don't know how to answer their arguements that are put forth in these verses....Ecclesiastes 12:7 Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10, James 2:26, Job 27:3, Job 17:13, Job 4:17,Job 14:12,21, Ezekiel 18:20, I Timothy 6:15,16, John 5:28,29, Acts 2:29, 34, Psalm 115:17, and 2 Peter 3:10. Is there a way you can show me that they are taking this out of context? I'd love to read what you have to say about these specific verses. Thank you for your time and God bless.
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#12

Post by derrick09 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:47 pm

Basically BW and others, I just want to go wherever the best evidence leads. If it leads to the doctorine of soul sleep I'm going to go with if it leads to the doctrine of immortal souls I want to go with it. It is as simple as that. I'd personally would like to see what the ancient Hebrew and Greek have to say in those verses. But anyway...
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#13

Post by BavarianWheels » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:56 pm

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I can't find the other discussion.

I am interested in hearing where, the side that holds to 'alive in heaven immediately at the moment of earthly death', says Lazarus was those 4 days he was dead? Also how is death an enemy if the dead go to heaven immediately? Just wondering how these simple points are reconciled through this view. Thx.
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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#14

Post by B. W. » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:59 pm

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Re: Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

#15

Post by BavarianWheels » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:24 pm

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From the late Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi:

The Human Soul
April 1999
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/end ... eti_14.pdf

The State of the Dead
May 1999
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/end ... eti_18.pdf

The list of newsletters by Dr. Bacchiocchi if interested.
(not that I agree 100% with EVERYTHING he writes...just there's a lot of topics of interest to some for the Adventist views/beliefs.)
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/
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