Two questions

Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
Post Reply
Modulus
Acquainted Member
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:13 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Two questions

#1

Post by Modulus » Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:07 pm

If God is omniscient, which he is, why must he be concerned with us at all?
He already knows the outcome of our existence even before he made us, since everything is predictable when you have absolute knowledge.

Relating to cosmology and the argument that our universe is absurdly finely tuned to an extraordinary degree:

Why is our universe special to some other hypothetical universe, life or no life? It's a bias geocentric perspective.

The universe is more suited to support barren rocks and balls of gas than life!

User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 9958
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia
Has liked: 634 times
Been liked: 653 times

Re: Two questions

#2

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:27 am

Modulus wrote:If God is omniscient, which he is, why must he be concerned with us at all?
He already knows the outcome of our existence even before he made us, since everything is predictable when you have absolute knowledge.
I don't see how God's omniscience necessitates a lack of concern for us.

It could be spun the other way, that God's omniscience and knowing everything about us means He would be deeply concerned for us in many more ways than anyone else could possibly be.

cslewislover
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2333
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Two questions

#3

Post by cslewislover » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:38 am

Modulus wrote:If God is omniscient, which he is, why must he be concerned with us at all?
He already knows the outcome of our existence even before he made us, since everything is predictable when you have absolute knowledge.
It's true that everything will come out, in the end, the way God wants it. Your questions seems a little odd to me. You ask, why MUST he be concerned with us, instead of why IS he concerned with us? As if, somehow, we're making up something about God just because it's our desire. In both the Old and New Testaments, it's made clear that God is a loving God. And that he made us out of love, gave us free will and desires our love, and orchestrates things in order for our loves to be fulfilled. John says, God is love. If you go by this premise first and look at what God is doing from that perspective, then you'll better understand him. He has the ability to know all things at once, but he doesn't necessarily exercise it. God wants us to worship Him because of his unfathomable qualities, sure, but He also wants us to love and trust Him. I would say, just off the top of my head, that God chose not to have absolute knowledge of us, since he gave us free will, but that if we accept him as Lord of our life and give ourselves to him, that he then can have absolute knowledge of us.
Image
"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis

User avatar
obsolete
Established Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:06 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Two questions

#4

Post by obsolete » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:12 am

cslewislover wrote:
Modulus wrote:If God is omniscient, which he is, why must he be concerned with us at all?
He already knows the outcome of our existence even before he made us, since everything is predictable when you have absolute knowledge.
I would say, just off the top of my head, that God chose not to have absolute knowledge of us, since he gave us free will, but that if we accept him as Lord of our life and give ourselves to him, that he then can have absolute knowledge of us.
I would disagree with this part. I believe that God has always had absolute knowledge of us, if we believe that God is all knowing. If we are to believe that God knows our thoughts and what is in our hearts, Christians or not, then this statement is, IMO, false. He knows our sins, our struggles, our sorrows, yet He will still love us and reach out to us no matter what. But, when we have knowledge of Him and give ourselves freely to Him, then we begin to understand Him more completely.
Jesus died for ALL. End of story.

cslewislover
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2333
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Two questions

#5

Post by cslewislover » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:23 am

obsolete wrote:
cslewislover wrote:
Modulus wrote:If God is omniscient, which he is, why must he be concerned with us at all?
He already knows the outcome of our existence even before he made us, since everything is predictable when you have absolute knowledge.
I would say, just off the top of my head, that God chose not to have absolute knowledge of us, since he gave us free will, but that if we accept him as Lord of our life and give ourselves to him, that he then can have absolute knowledge of us.
I would disagree with this part. I believe that God has always had absolute knowledge of us, if we believe that God is all knowing. If we are to believe that God knows our thoughts and what is in our hearts, Christians or not, then this statement is, IMO, false. He knows our sins, our struggles, our sorrows, yet He will still love us and reach out to us no matter what. But, when we have knowledge of Him and give ourselves freely to Him, then we begin to understand Him more completely.
I thought about what you said before I posted. It's definitely a mystery. However, how can we truly have free will, be free agents (at least in a sense), if God knows all ahead of time? And, I actually do believe in predestination and that things are planned out. Yet I still view it as a mystery, and that we're free. So my thinking goes along those lines. And I'm pretty sure I've read some commentary along these lines in the past. If I thought I was throwing out something that was just my uninformed opinion, I wouldn't have written it. Maybe later I can post CS Lewis' thought on this, or others'. It's certainly a difficult issue, and no one really can comprehend it fully anyway. That's why mysteries are mysteries.

When you say what you say about God being all knowing, you seem to be saying the same thing that some of the atheists use against us. About creating a rock he can't move, since he's all powerful. Yet he doesn't work in that way. He limits himself in certain things; that's what I've read and it seems to make sense. I've often read about how, with the issue at hand, he limits himself, that he doesn't look at time all at once or look at what's going on all at once. Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling. I need to look up some references. But anyway, when it comes to the individual, I think God is gentlemen. He doesn't come in and know all unless we invite him to (I'm not saying he can't). I don't know, lol, I think it's mysterious.
Image
"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis

User avatar
obsolete
Established Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:06 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Two questions

#6

Post by obsolete » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:06 am

cslewislover wrote: I thought about what you said before I posted. It's definitely a mystery. However, how can we truly have free will, be free agents (at least in a sense), if God knows all ahead of time?


Agreed that it is a mystery. I think about the Rabbi in the Synagog who passes over part of scripture reffering to the coming of the Messiah because he doesn't understand it. When God was walking thru the garden looking for Adam and Eve, He knew what they had done and where they were, yet asked them anyways. Why? If God didn't have knowledge of a person, would He reach out to the unbeliever in anyway that He could? What is more important to Him, the 99 who are safe, or the 1 that is astray?
And, I actually do believe in predestination and that things are planned out.
You contradict yourself later in your post. If you believe in predes, how can you think that God doesn't look at all things past, present and future?
When you say what you say about God being all knowing, you seem to be saying the same thing that some of the atheists use against us. About creating a rock he can't move, since he's all powerful.

This is contradictory. God will never do something that contradicts Him. So the rock that He can't lift, would be taking away Him being all powerful. God never contradicts Himself. I spend too much time discussing things like this with atheists'. Sorry about that one. :?

I've often read about how, with the issue at hand, he limits himself, that he doesn't look at time all at once or look at what's going on all at once.

Here is where the contradictory comes in. If you believe in predes, then thinking that God doesn't look at all time at once nullifies that. I too believe in predes, but not until a person has accepted Christ. Then there are things that are predestined for that individual, good works, to do.
Jesus died for ALL. End of story.

cslewislover
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2333
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Two questions

#7

Post by cslewislover » Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:26 pm

cslewislover wrote: And, I actually do believe in predestination and that things are planned out.
obsolete wrote:You contradict yourself later in your post. If you believe in predes, how can you think that God doesn't look at all things past, present and future?
I don't think it's contradictory. And maybe I'll get into that more later.
When you say what you say about God being all knowing, you seem to be saying the same thing that some of the atheists use against us. About creating a rock he can't move, since he's all powerful.
This is contradictory. God will never do something that contradicts Him. So the rock that He can't lift, would be taking away Him being all powerful. God never contradicts Himself. I spend too much time discussing things like this with atheists'. Sorry about that one. :?
You're totally misunderstanding me here. . . I was saying that that is what I was getting from you, but applying it to a different situation. And I didn't mean that you were doing it on purpose or meant something unChristian or unscriptural by it at all. I probably shouldn't have said it though, just because it's not the best example. Or, I should have looked up the one thread here where I got that from and how I was applying it. God is all knowing and all powerful, yet he makes choices in limiting His power in certain things. God can do anything, yet He chooses not to lie, for example. So He could also choose not to know a nonbeliever's thoughts anymore, say, just as an example. If God knew the person would never come to Him, maybe He would choose not to listen anymore. I'm being theoretical here and would need to look up some verses if I wanted to pursue this in a more practical way.
Here is where the contradictory comes in. If you believe in predes, then thinking that God doesn't look at all time at once nullifies that. I too believe in predes, but not until a person has accepted Christ. Then there are things that are predestined for that individual, good works, to do.
Again, I don't see the contradiction, but I'd have to get some references out since I don't have it all memorized. And if things are all predestined, then they are for nonbelievers as well. I'm not going to pretend to know how God does it. But there's a difference in thinking about how God makes things come out in the end; does God nudge them that way, or does He simply orchestrate every detail until then end? Do you know what I mean? This is where the mystery comes in for me since I believe God is in control of everything, yet we have free will at the same time. To me, thinking with the human brain that I have, this doesn't make sense. It IS contradictory. This is a difficulty for many people, and I've known people to not want to accept Christ because they don't want to believe that He'll control everything, that He's a micromanager. Which kind-of makes us puppets.

What I meant to come on here and write, however, after thinking about it some more and talking with my Pastor about it (though briefly), is that I don't want to stumble anyone about my abstract, theoretical thoughts, lol. God is all powerful and all knowing and he is more personal with us than most of us can realize. Yes, He knows our thoughts. And I'll just leave it at that. I don't want someone reading what I wrote thinking that somehow I was advocating that God isn't omniscient or omnipotent.
Last edited by cslewislover on Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis

User avatar
obsolete
Established Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:06 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Two questions

#8

Post by obsolete » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:51 pm

:doh: I understand now which way you were going with it. God Bless you and love you.

I can kind of see it now from your POV.
I don't want someone reading what I wrote thinking that somehow I was advocating that God isn't omniscient or omnipotent.
I know you weren't advocating this.
If God knew the person would never come to Him, maybe He would choose not to listen anymore. I'm being theoretical here and would need to look up some verses if I wanted to pursue this in a more practical way.
I am reminded of two things. The great flood and Sodom and Gamorra. I do believe that there is a point were God just says 'Okay, I reached out yet you would not listen. Enough is enough.'

I'm sorry, I didn't want to argue with you. y>:D<
Jesus died for ALL. End of story.

cslewislover
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2333
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Two questions

#9

Post by cslewislover » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:28 pm

y:(( y>:D<
Image
"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis

Modulus
Acquainted Member
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:13 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Two questions

#10

Post by Modulus » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:00 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Modulus wrote:If God is omniscient, which he is, why must he be concerned with us at all?
He already knows the outcome of our existence even before he made us, since everything is predictable when you have absolute knowledge.
I don't see how God's omniscience necessitates a lack of concern for us.

It could be spun the other way, that God's omniscience and knowing everything about us means He would be deeply concerned for us in many more ways than anyone else could possibly be.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that when you are omniscient (absolute knowledge), you know everything, including everything that happens in the future. He knew what Adam would do even before he created Adam. Same goes for all people which supposedly followed. To break it down - he knows what every single atom in the universe is up to at any given moment, hence he must be able to perceive the complete picture.

cslewislover
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2333
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Two questions

#11

Post by cslewislover » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:52 am

Modulus wrote: Maybe it has something to do with the fact that when you are omniscient (absolute knowledge), you know everything, including everything that happens in the future. He knew what Adam would do even before he created Adam. Same goes for all people which supposedly followed. To break it down - he knows what every single atom in the universe is up to at any given moment, hence he must be able to perceive the complete picture.
So why would knowing about us make Him not care for us? I know my son is going to grow up (God willing), so does that mean that I'm going to shrug and say "take care of yourself, you're going to grow up anyway?" I don't see why one thing - being all knowing - necessitates an uncaring personality.

So what if he knew Adam would do what he did ahead of time? God planned something proportionally more beautiful than Adams muck, his own son's death for us. Talk about a love story. You're missing the whole thing, it seems. Out of sheer love for us, to win us over, God died for us puny rebellious humans. Why bother? I think I would have nuked us all.
Image
"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis

Post Reply