The Most Important Rule??

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Imperium
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The Most Important Rule??

#1

Post by Imperium » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:37 am

What is the most important commandment that the bible gives us?

I personally believe that Jesus' great commandment (Luke 10:25), which is also confirmed in Leviticus 19:18 'Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself' is the most important rule in the bible.However I see less and less people in this world, especially those claiming to be 'Christian' that follow this most important cardinal rule. Jesus does not command us to love our neighbour as thy self unless he happens to be gay,divorced,have premarital sex or doesnt believe in your religion but simply to accept the people around us no matter their choices and actions in life.

I fail to see the value in calling a perfectly good person, who otherwise for all intents and purposes acts exactly as a Chtistian should (and far more tolerant at times may i add) evil just because he or she doesn't conform to your conception of sin.As heretical as this may sound but I dont think God intends for us to hate others, regardless of who they are. The bible is full of references to humility,tolerance,respect and justice but it is used as justification for hate. I find it completely stunning that there are people who quote the bible when attacking homosexuals,or Muslims,or even other Christians. If we all want to return to the basics of belief in God shouldnt we all be more tolerant instead of less?? y:-/
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Re: The Most Important Rule??

#2

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:15 am

Imperium wrote:What is the most important commandment that the bible gives us?

I personally believe that Jesus' great commandment (Luke 10:25), which is also confirmed in Leviticus 19:18 'Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself' is the most important rule in the bible.However I see less and less people in this world, especially those claiming to be 'Christian' that follow this most important cardinal rule. Jesus does not command us to love our neighbour as thy self unless he happens to be gay,divorced,have premarital sex or doesnt believe in your religion but simply to accept the people around us no matter their choices and actions in life.

I fail to see the value in calling a perfectly good person, who otherwise for all intents and purposes acts exactly as a Chtistian should (and far more tolerant at times may i add) evil just because he or she doesn't conform to your conception of sin.As heretical as this may sound but I dont think God intends for us to hate others, regardless of who they are. The bible is full of references to humility,tolerance,respect and justice but it is used as justification for hate. I find it completely stunning that there are people who quote the bible when attacking homosexuals,or Muslims,or even other Christians. If we all want to return to the basics of belief in God shouldnt we all be more tolerant instead of less?? y:-/
Tolerance does not mean acceptance of practices. I do not see Christians attacking others in Western society. Frowning upon, yes perhaps, hypocritical, I am sure. Yet, it takes violence to be intolerant.

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Re: The Most Important Rule??

#3

Post by Imperium » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:33 am

ok perhaps attacking was a bad choice of word..

But even if intolerance isnt violent isn't frowning upon a form of intolerance?? are we so ungodly arrogant as to believe that we are superior?? I can't think oif anything less Christian than to hold ones self higher than another on the basis of belief. God also teaches us to accept too,and to look at ones own sins before judging those of others.

Im really having trouble coming to grips with the ethical problem all this creates
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Re: The Most Important Rule??

#4

Post by zoegirl » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:46 am

But you would agree that we do not tolerate a number of things, whether we are CHristian or not!! We do not tolerate murder, child abuse, sexual abuse, rape, embezzeling money, financial fraud.

The fact that we even tolerate practices that are immoral is a testament to our support of our governmentwith respect to freedom, not in any sense of *agreement* with these practices. Tolerance does not mean we have to agree or condone.


Not to mention that in *loving* them as society wants us to love them would really not be loving them at all!! Letting them live a life of sin is not love.
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Re: The Most Important Rule??

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Post by jenna » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:39 am

The way I feel about this, is that everyone should live their own life. We should not judge others for living a lifestyle of their choosing. Only God has the right to tell us, or them, they are wrong for what they do. What we need to focus on is our own life. As the bible says, sin is sin. In God's eyes there is no difference between telling a white lie, and going out and committing mass murder. Both are sin. Are we really the ones that should cast the first stone?
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Re: The Most Important Rule??

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Post by Imperium » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:42 pm

jenna wrote:The way I feel about this, is that everyone should live their own life. We should not judge others for living a lifestyle of their choosing. Only God has the right to tell us, or them, they are wrong for what they do. What we need to focus on is our own life. As the bible says, sin is sin. In God's eyes there is no difference between telling a white lie, and going out and committing mass murder. Both are sin. Are we really the ones that should cast the first stone?
Exactly.We arent given the wisdom to judge true good and evil, and can only experience a societal approximation of it.So any judging of peoples actions is meaningless whether or not the bible labels them as 'immoral'
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'I assure you that the ability to view our futures can become a bore. Even to be thought of as a god, as I certainly was, can become ultimately boring. It has occurred to me more than once that holy boredom is good and sufficient reason for the invention of free will' Paul Atreides

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Re: The Most Important Rule??

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Post by YLTYLT » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:56 am

When you watch you neighbor to doing something that is going to harm him and say nothing, How can this be loving toward your neighbor?

But I think it is important that if we do point out something that we see a person doing, that we do it with humility and be as completely transparent as possible. Maybe by admitting that we have our own sinfull tendencies as well that we struggle with.
You might even ask permission from the person to point out something that might help them. I think it is good to have someone in your life that you have given permission for them to do that, because you know that they care.

You could ask something like, "If I saw you doing something that could be harmful to you or others would you want me to tell you about it?" Or a similar question.

But to not even attempt to inform them, is not loving at all.

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Re: The Most Important Rule??

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Post by Cross.eyed » Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:02 pm

Hi Imperium, good post and a subject that I think should be addressed more often than it is.

If all christians were to look at themselves the same as they look at others, I believe they would come to an understanding of others that would inspire a better tolerance for the nonbeliever and and see things differently in ourselves as well. When Isaiah saw God-6:5-8 it seems as if he looked at himself in a new light Woe is me for I am undone:because I am a man of unclean lips...it was like "Ohmygosh, we've had it!! If we were to see ourselves in contrast to God as did Isaiah, we would also think we don't have a chance.

To see others as an important person(s) in the eyes of God and made in the image of God-regardless of their current behavior-would put everyone in the same class; human.

To inventory one's self, both past and present, and see just how much in error we really are gives a better light when trying to understand anyone else. Self examination whether believer or not can be a valuable tool when learning to "Love your neighbor as yourself." I pray for more christians to try this the more benefit I find in its use.

Our Savior saved his most stern warnings for those who claimed rightousness and when we can remember this we might get to the point of "Hate the sin, Love the sinner."and as zoegirl an yltylt mentioned we can learn what real love is.
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Re: The Most Important Rule??

#9

Post by jenna » Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:15 pm

YLTYLT wrote:When you watch you neighbor to doing something that is going to harm him and say nothing, How can this be loving toward your neighbor?

But I think it is important that if we do point out something that we see a person doing, that we do it with humility and be as completely transparent as possible. Maybe by admitting that we have our own sinfull tendencies as well that we struggle with.
You might even ask permission from the person to point out something that might help them. I think it is good to have someone in your life that you have given permission for them to do that, because you know that they care.

You could ask something like, "If I saw you doing something that could be harmful to you or others would you want me to tell you about it?" Or a similar question.

But to not even attempt to inform them, is not loving at all.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree. If someone is doing something that could harm them, we should definitely try to help them. But helping them and judging them for what they do, are two totally separate things. If someone sees me doing something that may harm me, I would appreciate them pointing it out. However, judging others because of their lifestyle, is something only God can do.
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Re: The Most Important Rule??

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Post by Cross.eyed » Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:36 pm

jenna wrote:
YLTYLT wrote:When you watch you neighbor to doing something that is going to harm him and say nothing, How can this be loving toward your neighbor?

But I think it is important that if we do point out something that we see a person doing, that we do it with humility and be as completely transparent as possible. Maybe by admitting that we have our own sinfull tendencies as well that we struggle with.
You might even ask permission from the person to point out something that might help them. I think it is good to have someone in your life that you have given permission for them to do that, because you know that they care.

You could ask something like, "If I saw you doing something that could be harmful to you or others would you want me to tell you about it?" Or a similar question.

But to not even attempt to inform them, is not loving at all.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree. If someone is doing something that could harm them, we should definitely try to help them. But helping them and judging them for what they do, are two totally separate things. If someone sees me doing something that may harm me, I would appreciate them pointing it out. However, judging others because of their lifestyle, is something only God can do.
I think imperium was saying judgment based on what someone's concept of sin is.
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Re: The Most Important Rule??

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Post by zoegirl » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:21 pm

UNderstanding what is wrong and not accepting sin (a judgement) is not the same as arrogance and self-righteousness (what most consider "judging someone"). Understanding that there are people who willfully commit sin and that we are not to accept their actions is not the same as holding oneself as better than they. "There but for the grace of God..."

We all judge actions and thoughts and motivations. Good grief, anybody ever hear of "hate crime"? In that instance essentially society is establishing that it is wuite right to judge an action so heinous as to belong to an entire new category of crime. We are judging the perpetrators heart and motivations and not simply their actions.

Graffiti on a wall is a crime, spray painting a swastika on a Jewish person's house would be a hate crime.

We judge ALL the time. We are CALLED to judge, to be discerning. We tell our children to pick their friends wisely and pray that they reject certain groups in school because we understand that these groups can lead to poor decisions. We are called to be discerning about our friends, what we think about, what we say....

We are CALLED to not asscociate with certain groups of people in scripture. In this we are called to be discerning, do not associate with liars, cheats, sexual idolators, fornicators....gossips....

BUt we are called to be humble, WE are no better, it is because of our sin that Christ died.

But let's not sit back and proclaim that we are not supposed to judge what is sin...if we are not supposed to do that, then what hope is there for the justice system? Are not the things we punish for sins?? They are not called that by society but they are.
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Re: The Most Important Rule??

#12

Post by Imperium » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:29 pm

Yes but why are sexual deviants, fornicators and the like necessarily evil. For example is a gay person who otherwise is the gentlest,humblest and most Christian spirited of people (believe me i know a couple) totally alienated God because of his/her preferences?? Or are they judged by him to be worthy by their actions?? I agree whole heartedly that to stop someone from self harm is most admirable but to judge others, to be self-righteous is completely anti-Christian.

I guess it comes down to a question of whether or not good and evil are inherent or assigned by society.Or whether or not we are predestined or saved by works (is tha the right term?)
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Re: The Most Important Rule??

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Post by cslewislover » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:26 pm

Those sins you mentioned don't make the people "evil". Zoe is right in that we are called to be discerning. If people never sinned, then why would they need a savior? If we never perceived them as sinning, why would we be motivated to tell them of Christ's sacrifice and love? There would be no need. What I get concerned about when I read posts like this is that when a Christian simply says that an action is sinful, he's labled as judgemental and therefore hateful. There's a big difference between knowing what a sin is (as given by God in the bible) and addressing it, and hating a sinful person. Hating is wrong; pointing out sin so that people can repent of it and be saved is right. Yes, we are to be humble and loving, but that doesn't mean ignoring people's spiritually destructive behavior.

We hate sin because God hates sin and God lives in us; we don't hate people who are made in the image of God. One professor who spoke at our church talked about this issue and I thought he said it well. He said we are not to judge whether or not someone will make it into heaven (whether they are "saved" or not), but we are to discern sin. We would never repent of our sin if we didn't have discernment, and if we weren't reflective about that ourselves, we wouldn't be humble, either. I think that people who say they are Christians but continue to sin purposely and happily are either willfully disobeying God (you can see 1 John 2:4-6 on this), or are ignorant of what He says about whatever sin they are doing. It's how we are. We all want to do what we want to do; only God's spirit can help us live they way He wants us to.
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Re: The Most Important Rule??

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Post by zoegirl » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:10 pm

Imperium wrote:Yes but why are sexual deviants, fornicators and the like necessarily evil. For example is a gay person who otherwise is the gentlest,humblest and most Christian spirited of people (believe me i know a couple) totally alienated God because of his/her preferences?? Or are they judged by him to be worthy by their actions?? I agree whole heartedly that to stop someone from self harm is most admirable but to judge others, to be self-righteous is completely anti-Christian.

I guess it comes down to a question of whether or not good and evil are inherent or assigned by society.Or whether or not we are predestined or saved by works (is tha the right term?)

"Christian spirited" doesn't mean anything. They need to be following Christ and denying their own desires. Believe me, I struggle with this being a single Christian. It's not as if I can use my sexuality as a *reason* for sinning. I cannot rationalize fornication simply because I have the desire. And many of the arguments I hear for accepting homosexuality lies in its existence. "Why am I born this way?" Well, since when does being born a certain way dictate accepting it? THere are those that are born with a natural leaning towards addictive behaviors. We don't think this means they should be an alcoholic?!? Do we?

And even married must deny their desires for themselves, for other people.

YOu must clarify what you mean in the last sentence. Good and evil are not assigned by society, but rather by God. We are not saved by works. None of us have ever said anything like this.

Avoiding sin as a Christian is part of sanctifiction, a process wrought by the Holy Spirit. As such we are to grow in Christ and avoid sin.

Avoiding sin is *not* a means of salvation. We cannot be holy and rightoues on our own. Unless I am not understanding what you are saying here. Which, being the end of the school year, wouldn't be surprising!! :esurprised:
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Re: The Most Important Rule??

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Post by jenna » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:21 pm

I guess the main question I have is; should we really focus on what others do in their lives, or focus on our own lives? How can we say "you shouldn't do that" to someone, while at the same time we are sinning ourselves? My personal feelings are that we should fix our own actions before moving on to someone else's actions. y:-?
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