The Most Important Rule??

Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
cslewislover
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2333
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#16

Post by cslewislover » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:26 pm

If we all waited until we were totally sinless to help others not sin, then we'd be waiting forever. There would be no Chrisianity. It's true that Jesus talked of taking the 2x4 out of your own eye before removing our brother's sawdust from his eye. And we've been saying that - to be self-reflective and humble. But He didn't say to just leave the sawdust in our brother's eye forever.
Image
"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis

User avatar
Imperium
Familiar Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#17

Post by Imperium » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:03 pm

cslewislover wrote:we all waited until we were totally sinless to help others not sin, then we'd be waiting forever. There would be no Chrisianity. It's true that Jesus talked of taking the 2x4 out of your own eye before removing our brother's sawdust from his eye. And we've been saying that - to be self-reflective and humble. But He didn't say to just leave the sawdust in our brother's eye forever.
I dont really think Christianity is all about being sinless per se but more about trying to be the best people we can be as humans. We all sin, and we should not try act like we are any better or worse than our fellow humans just because we happen to believe in something they dont
'Long Pretence Creates Reality' Master Tylwyth Waff

'I assure you that the ability to view our futures can become a bore. Even to be thought of as a god, as I certainly was, can become ultimately boring. It has occurred to me more than once that holy boredom is good and sufficient reason for the invention of free will' Paul Atreides

YLTYLT
Established Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:21 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#18

Post by YLTYLT » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:34 am

These verses below indicate that we should not judge those that are NOT saved, but possibly only those that are saved.
1 Corinthians 5
3For I, on my part, though (E)absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.

4(F)In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, (G)with the power of our Lord Jesus,

5I have decided to (H)deliver such a one to (I)Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in (J)the day of the Lord [a]Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote you in my letter (P)not to associate with immoral people;

10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with (Q)idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
When a professing Christian is continually and unremorsefully sinning, we are told not to associate with him/her so that maybe they will see the error of their ways and repent. But this must be done in a loving, humble manner, because Christians are sinners as well, and many times they go about this in an unloving manner, which is sin in itself. We cannot just identify the persons sin and say "THATS WRONG". That does absolutely no good. In addition to identifying the sin (in the most humble manner) we must also pont the beleiver to how loving God is. Because it is not the fear of condemnation that leads us to repent. It is the the goodness of God that leads us to repentance.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

We should point a person back to the day they were saved, so they can remember what God did for them. Just like God continually told the disobedient Israelites through the prophets to "remember how I saved you out of Egypt?" Now act like someone that is worthy to show the world what true Christianty is supposed to be like.

But with any unsaved person, it matters not what their lifestyle is, we should not judge. For it is impossible for them to see that their lifestyle is sinful until they have been saved. We do not repent from sin to get saved(this would be works based salvation which is a false gospel). We first admit that we are a sinner in need of a saviour, Jesus, and then the Holy Spirit will convict us that we need to repent of our sinful lifestyle.

The conflict occurs in society, when lifestyles or actions are labeled as NOT sinful, but that the Bible states to be sin. Can a person be a Christian and have committed murder or adultery? Of course, think of King David. The same is true of a person who has commited a homosexual act and has the inclination for a homosexual lifestyle. They can also be a Christian, but if they are NOT being convicted that the Homosexual lifestyle is wrong, then they may have never received the Holy Spirit. Just like king david did in his murder and adultry, he had to admit to God that it was wrong, and that he had sinned not just against men but most importantly that he had sinned against God.

If a person does have the HS and is being convicted that any sin is wrong, but still continues to do it, then just as a loving parent will discipline a disobedient child, God will chasten the disobedient Christian, and God MAY possibly chasten to the point of physical death, although the person will still be saved.(1 cor 5:5 or 1 John 5:16 - "sin unto death")

It is about wanting what is objectively right, regardless of what my current feelings about what I think it is to be right. We need to learn to think "outside of the box". There is a good secular book called "Leadership and Self-Deception" that tells a story about this concept of thinking outside of the box. The problem is that most people caught in a sinful lifestyle (homosexual or not) are so deeply entrenched that it is hard for them to think outside of their own circumstances. And it is only until they hit bottom are they sometimes willing to consider what they previously believed to be correct, as possibly being incorrect. But even many Christians will interpret scripture to agree with what they think is correct - for what is sin and what is not sin - so they can justify their sinful tendencies. I am sure I have done that myself, but hopefully I am growing in grace, and will continue to interpret scripture objectively.

But like the song "East To West" by Casting Crowns says, "I can't live by what I feel, but by the Truth Your Word reveals"

User avatar
Imperium
Familiar Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#19

Post by Imperium » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:49 pm

YLTYLT wrote:
It is about wanting what is objectively right, regardless of what my current feelings about what I think it is to be right. We need to learn to think "outside of the box". There is a good secular book called "Leadership and Self-Deception" that tells a story about this concept of thinking outside of the box. The problem is that most people caught in a sinful lifestyle (homosexual or not) are so deeply entrenched that it is hard for them to think outside of their own circumstances. And it is only until they hit bottom are they sometimes willing to consider what they previously believed to be correct, as possibly being incorrect. But even many Christians will interpret scripture to agree with what they think is correct - for what is sin and what is not sin - so they can justify their sinful tendencies. I am sure I have done that myself, but hopefully I am growing in grace, and will continue to interpret scripture objectively.

But like the song "East To West" by Casting Crowns says, "I can't live by what I feel, but by the Truth Your Word reveals"
That works if one is trying to justify ones own sins.but what if I consider a sin to be not sinful but have NEVER done it? isnt that being objective? because I believe in the basic goodness of all humanity (if God created us we cant be evil can we) I see sins as less important then the good we do.Even the greatest sinner can be a good person and do the work of a Christianm while even the mosy believing committed Christian can do horrendous evil in this world
'Long Pretence Creates Reality' Master Tylwyth Waff

'I assure you that the ability to view our futures can become a bore. Even to be thought of as a god, as I certainly was, can become ultimately boring. It has occurred to me more than once that holy boredom is good and sufficient reason for the invention of free will' Paul Atreides

User avatar
zoegirl
Old School
Posts: 3927
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: east coast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#20

Post by zoegirl » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:27 pm

Imperium,

May I ask what is your view of Christ's purpose in living in the world? Who is He?

If our goodness is greater than any sin, than what is His role in the Christian's life?
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

User avatar
Imperium
Familiar Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#21

Post by Imperium » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:38 pm

zoegirl wrote:Imperium,

May I ask what is your view of Christ's purpose in living in the world? Who is He?

If our goodness is greater than any sin, than what is His role in the Christian's life?
By all means zoegirl,

Christ was our role model and messiah who came to teach us not to believe in a God that hates, but in a God that loves and forgives all, because we are human and therefore cant get everything right all the time.He also taught us that God isn't up on some unreachable pinnacle in the heavens, but in all of us, and very much accessible. God is everywhere, in the hearts of the wicked and the pure, in nature, in the universe, in the most committed Christian and in the most strong Atheist.

And I never any point said that our goodness was greater, merely,as I see it anyways, more important to God then our sins.All humans sin and do things wrong in their lives.Its a given.God accepts that because he made us that way.So as opposed to punishing us for being us he rewards us for trying to escape our baser nature and become truly human.
'Long Pretence Creates Reality' Master Tylwyth Waff

'I assure you that the ability to view our futures can become a bore. Even to be thought of as a god, as I certainly was, can become ultimately boring. It has occurred to me more than once that holy boredom is good and sufficient reason for the invention of free will' Paul Atreides

User avatar
BavarianWheels
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1806
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:09 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#22

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:57 pm

Imperium wrote:All humans sin and do things wrong in their lives.Its a given.God accepts that because he made us that way.
I hope you don't really mean what it sounds like you are saying,...that God *made* humanity sinful...
.
.

User avatar
Imperium
Familiar Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#23

Post by Imperium » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:08 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
I hope you don't really mean what it sounds like you are saying,...that God *made* humanity sinful...
.
.
No.God merely created us human
'Long Pretence Creates Reality' Master Tylwyth Waff

'I assure you that the ability to view our futures can become a bore. Even to be thought of as a god, as I certainly was, can become ultimately boring. It has occurred to me more than once that holy boredom is good and sufficient reason for the invention of free will' Paul Atreides

User avatar
zoegirl
Old School
Posts: 3927
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: east coast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#24

Post by zoegirl » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:36 pm

mind poviding the *scripture* for that which you believe? What in the world in scripture makes you think that GOd accepts us as we are. I will be glas to reciprocate, but thought I would get your feedback.

Another question, then.

Why did CHrist have to die? Why die for our sins if this was unecessary?
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

User avatar
Imperium
Familiar Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#25

Post by Imperium » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:54 pm

zoegirl wrote:mind poviding the *scripture* for that which you believe? What in the world in scripture makes you think that GOd accepts us as we are. I will be glas to reciprocate, but thought I would get your feedback.

Another question, then.

Why did CHrist have to die? Why die for our sins if this was unecessary?
Need EVERYTHING come back to scripture??? I am sure somewhere along the line Jesus warned people about sticking to closely to 'the book' hence his war of words with the ultra-conservative Pharisees and Sadducees. I believe in what I believe because thats what 10 odd years of thinking since my baptism, and what reading the bible has lead me to believe

And why did Christ die?? because he was a messiah and a reformer in the wrong place and the wrong time and he was an example God sent us of what true faith is.The Romans were thoroughly sick of religious factionalism in Judea since its incorporation into the empire and wanted those troublesome Jews to settle down.That and Pilate was a weak willed man of straw who gained his position through wealth and a propriotous marriage.
'Long Pretence Creates Reality' Master Tylwyth Waff

'I assure you that the ability to view our futures can become a bore. Even to be thought of as a god, as I certainly was, can become ultimately boring. It has occurred to me more than once that holy boredom is good and sufficient reason for the invention of free will' Paul Atreides

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5306
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 2 times

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#26

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:11 pm

Imperium wrote:
zoegirl wrote:mind poviding the *scripture* for that which you believe? What in the world in scripture makes you think that GOd accepts us as we are. I will be glas to reciprocate, but thought I would get your feedback.

Another question, then.

Why did CHrist have to die? Why die for our sins if this was unecessary?
Need EVERYTHING come back to scripture??? I am sure somewhere along the line Jesus warned people about sticking to closely to 'the book' hence his war of words with the ultra-conservative Pharisees and Sadducees. I believe in what I believe because thats what 10 odd years of thinking since my baptism, and what reading the bible has lead me to believe

And why did Christ die?? because he was a messiah and a reformer in the wrong place and the wrong time and he was an example God sent us of what true faith is.The Romans were thoroughly sick of religious factionalism in Judea since its incorporation into the empire and wanted those troublesome Jews to settle down.That and Pilate was a weak willed man of straw who gained his position through wealth and a propriotous marriage.
Everything doesn't necessarily have to come back to Scripture, but then anything that conflicts with Scripture is not the Truth. granted sometimes we have a hard time differentiating what is clearly said in the Scripture and what is interpretation or opinion based upon the Scripture, but that granted, I think there's some pretty clear teaching in the Scripture that indicates that just as it's possible to get out of balance in terms of the view of the Bible and legalism, which I agree Jesus lambasterd the Pharisee's for, so too, it's possible to focus so much on God's love and foregiveness that it loses sight of the fact that God is also just and sin carries a price both eternally and temporally.

The circumstances of Christs' death were not the cause and purpose of His death and subsequent resurrection. Christ willingly surrendered His life as an atoning sacrifice on our behalf, in the context of those circumstances, not principally because of them. Looking at it otherwise relegates Christ to a human victim.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
zoegirl
Old School
Posts: 3927
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: east coast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#27

Post by zoegirl » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:16 pm

Um, why should everything point back to scripture?!?!? With regards to defining who Christ is and theology and doctrin, then yes, scripture is at least a major part of it!

SCripture is the source for our understanding who CHrist is. Even if you believe something other than Orthodox CHristianity, you better be able to UNDERSTAND WHY you believe something other than "it sounds nicer" than what scripture actually says.

"Always be ready to give the reason for the hope you have"

Otherwise it comes down to simply "I believe this because I *want* to believe it" . You want to believe that Christ is merely a good exAmple for us, but that is NOT what scriptrue teaches.


And Christ was so much more than an example. He died as payment for our sins. Sins which do indeed separate us from God. We cannot become righteous. But through Christ's death and resurrection (by the way, do you believe HE rose from the dead?!) our sins were imputeed to Him and His righteousness was given to us. He *conquered* sin for us. THAT"S why HE died. The Romans were merely the method used.
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

User avatar
Imperium
Familiar Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#28

Post by Imperium » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:27 pm

Theology and doctrine both come from the Church, not God. They are constructs of society to try understand the nature of God.The reason we have so many Theologies is that there are as many ways to interpret the Bible as there are people who read it.And all of them are correct. I chose,using my free will to attempt to understand the spirit of the bible, not the letter

And who is to say what Christianity is Orthodox?? According to many the Catholic church, of which i am a member, albeit a very liberal one, is both unorthodox and to some extent heretical
'Long Pretence Creates Reality' Master Tylwyth Waff

'I assure you that the ability to view our futures can become a bore. Even to be thought of as a god, as I certainly was, can become ultimately boring. It has occurred to me more than once that holy boredom is good and sufficient reason for the invention of free will' Paul Atreides

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5306
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 2 times

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#29

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:34 pm

Imperium wrote:Theology and doctrine both come from the Church, not God. They are constructs of society to try understand the nature of God.The reason we have so many Theologies is that there are as many ways to interpret the Bible as there are people who read it.And all of them are correct. I chose,using my free will to attempt to understand the spirit of the bible, not the letter

And who is to say what Christianity is Orthodox?? According to many the Catholic church, of which i am a member, albeit a very liberal one, is both unorthodox and to some extent heretical
Theology and Doctine are more than just opinion. There's a human element, but to simply throw it away because there are other opinions assumes that all opinions are equally valid, or invalid, as it were. We certainly have to approach it with an attitude of humility and be willing to adjust and change, but that doesn't mean it's a fruitless pursuit.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
Imperium
Familiar Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Most Important Rule??

#30

Post by Imperium » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:40 pm

Just because theyre constructs doesnt make them less so, no.To some extent it makes them more important because they are the only way for us to understand GOd
'Long Pretence Creates Reality' Master Tylwyth Waff

'I assure you that the ability to view our futures can become a bore. Even to be thought of as a god, as I certainly was, can become ultimately boring. It has occurred to me more than once that holy boredom is good and sufficient reason for the invention of free will' Paul Atreides

Post Reply