Christians who committ suicide

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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#46

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:37 am

Salvation is indeed overridden by sin when you put into perspective that God gave men unrestricted practice of free choice.Why would God grant eternity and life to one who hates it?(the one who commits suicide)Yes ,God loves us but not much to force us to live besides and outside our will.Salvation is not overridden by sin to those that chose it as Christ Himself gives victory to those that want to escape it.Anyway,what is Scriptural definition of sin?In saying God can override our choices to give us life is to say he is a dictator who imposes Himself on us-our free wills should be His greatest principle upon which He grants us life(because we would have chosen) and to some death because they do not rejoice in holy things
I still hold that the one who takes his/her life is forgiveable,but not forgiven(when does one have the time to ask for pardon when he/she has passed away?)The dead do not praise or worship God neither are they in heaven.Psalm 115 v 17,Acts 2 v 29&34.
1. Sin in the Biblical sense means to miss the mark in terms of God's standards of holiness. In that regard, as the Scriptures teach, all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God and no one is righteous before God.

2. Suicide is a sin, however relative to God's holiness there is no sin that is more or less foregivable when measured against God's holiness and Christ's sacrifice.

3. What you propose above is nothing less than a works based salvation.

4. If Salvation is conditional upon our being able to ask specific pardon following any sin, the most practical and kind thing we could do for a new Christian would be to kill them immediately following their salvation decision in order to ensure they would not lose it. By the rationale proposed above, that would be preferable as the one then doing the killing would have time to ask for pardon.

5. Your proof text has nothing to do specifically with suicide exclusively, it is death in general from the perspective of the living. Again, applied uniformly in the context you appeal to it which is not the context of the passage itself, there is only annihilation and no hope for any and nothing to live for but, the present.
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#47

Post by oscarsiziba » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:46 am

The works we do should and cannot be wrought of our sinful and dirty nature ,but through the enabling power of God.Remember His loves constraints us and we can do all things since nothing is impossible with Him.Remember Enoch lived a holy life(sinless)Sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law(1John 3 v4).See where the issue of the Law comes(in the New Testament)!Faith without works is dead(living within the Law) and works without faith are dead,too.This brings us to the conclusion that there are characteristics that follow God's children and there is a marked difference between God's children and just professors of religion-lifestyle.If works are not necessary then we better live carelessly because God will save us regardless of what we do in this life?The only works that matter are only those driven and helped by the power of God for without Him we can do nothing(John 15 v5),meaning even what we do without His power is vanity!
The Scriptures I gave in my last sentence were just to show that the dead are not in heaven,but in their graves as I had seen such connotations from some posts.
Once again:God cannot save those who do not trust Him to bear their burdens(resulting in them committing suicide),manifesting contempt for the Lifegiver and prematurely ending their lives.
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#48

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:48 am

oscarsiziba wrote:The works we do should and cannot be wrought of our sinful and dirty nature ,but through the enabling power of God.Remember His loves constraints us and we can do all things since nothing is impossible with Him.Remember Enoch lived a holy life(sinless)Sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law(1John 3 v4).See where the issue of the Law comes(in the New Testament)!Faith without works is dead(living within the Law) and works without faith are dead,too.This brings us to the conclusion that there are characteristics that follow God's children and there is a marked difference between God's children and just professors of religion-lifestyle.If works are not necessary then we better live carelessly because God will save us regardless of what we do in this life?The only works that matter are only those driven and helped by the power of God for without Him we can do nothing(John 15 v5),meaning even what we do without His power is vanity!
The Scriptures I gave in my last sentence were just to show that the dead are not in heaven,but in their graves as I had seen such connotations from some posts.
Once again:God cannot save those who do not trust Him to bear their burdens(resulting in them committing suicide),manifesting contempt for the Lifegiver and prematurely ending their lives.
1. Yes there is nothing of our own efforts that is acceptable to God, that is why we need Christ's atoning work on our behalf.

2. Enoch was not sinless. Only Christ, as the second Adam can make that claim.

3. There's no question that God will be and is the only one who can ultimately determine the state any individual's salvation and there is no doubt in my mind that many we imagine to be in the fold will not be, and further many we imagine outside will prove to be.

4. Suicide is not identified scripturally as a more serious sin than any other. Attempting to state that it is, in effect places us in a position where we are in effect stating that our standards are higher than God's and that is the essence of Pride.

Practically, as a Pastor I've had to counsel with and assist with families in the wake of suicides. It is a tragic event and one which has a decidely different flavor to it than a natural death or even a tragic accident. Suicide ultimately is best understood as a supremely selfish act, where the needs or hurts of an individual are such that they elevate them above the love and responsibility they have for those who love them, care for them and depend upon them. For some, there are physical issues of pain and suffering that drive them to it so not every situation is the same and not every situation can be declared to simply be selfishness, but I'd venture to say more often than not, that is involved. Those left behind have to cope not only with the loss, but also with the fact that their loved one chose to do this and chose to leave them. It's an incredibly painful thing that compounds the pain for many.

The answers I'm giving here are the same as the ones I gave when I was in active ministry in those situations.

I hope you're never in a position where you need to minister in that situation. If you are, I hope you give greater attention to some of the issues you're raising because while it is never appropriate to give false hope to a grieving family, there is no benefit in multiplying their pain through statements such as some that I've seen made here.
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#49

Post by oscarsiziba » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:33 am

Tough and true talk is needed if people are to be set free from the fetters of error and come to the knowledge of the truth.Jesus had no such talk as sweet talk,but addressed the truth as it was and it remained with the individual whether or not to take down the bitterness of the truth and live it or turn away.The need to chocolate-coat the truth always compromises it.
What does the Bible declare of Enoch?(Gen 5 v 22 and 24,1John 3 v 24)).Does it not mean to be holy and walk within the parameters of God to be holy?1John 3 v 6 clearly states that those born of the Spirit do not sin(1John 3 v 4)defines sin.Jesus had holiness here below and kept His Father's commandments-John 15 v 10 and our love towards Him is shown by emulating Him through asking for the power to do as He did,even more!
God does not decide any individual's salvation.Reason being He automatically becomes an autocrat if He does that,but we determine our own salvation by the way we behave.God only rewards us as we would have fared(Rev 22 v 12).We exercise our choice and God honors it period.God has given us the parameters by which to live if we are to forever live with Him and the devil has brought in the concept of us being saved in our sins.NO!Jesus came to save us from our sins,not in our sins!This means there are moral laws with which we have to live to distinguish and align ourselves with Him(John 14 v 15).Keeping the commandments is not grievous and is characteristic of those that will enter New Jerusalem(1 John 5 v3,1 John 2 v3,4,1 John 3 v22,Rev 22 v14 ).
I never said suicide is the greatest sin,but that who asks forgiveness on behalf of the one who commits it?It just comes to the point that this person died unrepentant,do you think Judas will be heaven? y:-/
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#50

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:30 am

oscarsiziba wrote:Tough and true talk is needed if people are to be set free from the fetters of error and come to the knowledge of the truth.Jesus had no such talk as sweet talk,but addressed the truth as it was and it remained with the individual whether or not to take down the bitterness of the truth and live it or turn away.The need to chocolate-coat the truth always compromises it.
What does the Bible declare of Enoch?(Gen 5 v 22 and 24,1John 3 v 24)).Does it not mean to be holy and walk within the parameters of God to be holy?1John 3 v 6 clearly states that those born of the Spirit do not sin(1John 3 v 4)defines sin.Jesus had holiness here below and kept His Father's commandments-John 15 v 10 and our love towards Him is shown by emulating Him through asking for the power to do as He did,even more!
God does not decide any individual's salvation.Reason being He automatically becomes an autocrat if He does that,but we determine our own salvation by the way we behave.God only rewards us as we would have fared(Rev 22 v 12).We exercise our choice and God honors it period.God has given us the parameters by which to live if we are to forever live with Him and the devil has brought in the concept of us being saved in our sins.NO!Jesus came to save us from our sins,not in our sins!This means there are moral laws with which we have to live to distinguish and align ourselves with Him(John 14 v 15).Keeping the commandments is not grievous and is characteristic of those that will enter New Jerusalem(1 John 5 v3,1 John 2 v3,4,1 John 3 v22,Rev 22 v14 ).
I never said suicide is the greatest sin,but that who asks forgiveness on behalf of the one who commits it?It just comes to the point that this person died unrepentant,do you think Judas will be heaven? y:-/
1. Tough and True talk is not the issue. Poor doctrine and a lack of compassion is the issue. Jesus reserved his greatest wrath for the Pharisees who focused on the law, minimized people, and by their doctrine and "tough talk" condemned those who followed their doctrinal error and manipulation. Jesus also demonstrated great care and emotion for those he loved who were suffering. Refer to Lazarus death and his reaction and response to Martha and Mary. Who's talk does your claims resemble most? Christ's or the Pharisee's?

2. Holiness for the Christian is a process in which we grow and mature to image of Christ. What we have positionally in Christ and Christ alone is a reflection and appropriation of His Holiness not our own walk. Our righteousness in that regard is like filthy rags. Only Christ, and Christ alone lived a sinless life.

3. Forgiveness for sins in the sense of salvation is not appropriated moment by moment on the basis of our asking forgiveness. We ask forgiveness to keep current accounts and a clear conscience before God but we do not walk with Christ by constantly falling in and out of salvation which is what you are suggesting here by your assertion that a person who commits suicide cannot ask for forgiveness for that act in this life.

4. Judas is condemned for his betrayal and rejection of Christ, not the act of suicide.

Now, I suggest you take a look at the Purpose of this Board and the Discussion Guidelines. We exist as a community for seekers who are looking to know more of Christ and we have a Statement of Faith there that lays out the tenets we stand by in the form of Orthodox Christianity. We do not exist as a platform for those who espouse substantially different beliefs than those or as a debate board for those who are here convinced of their own positions and not open to examining their beliefs in that regard.

You've made it clear that you have a substantially works based approach to salvation which saddens me because if you haven't discovered what Freedom in Christ is then you are going to have a very frustrating experience attempting to be holy enough to merit the salvation that Christ give freely to those who repent and come to Him and then walk in a position of assurance of that salvation.

More importantly, the error you are promoting here with regard to suicide has very practical implications especially for those who have loved ones who have committed this act of desperation which nobody here has claimed is not a sin nor that everyone who commits such an act is saved by any stretch of the imagination.

If you cannot abide by the basic guidelines of this Board in that regard I suggest you move on or I or another moderator will make that decision for you. It's becoming clear to me that you are here to preach a gospel different that what this board exists to promote.

Consider this a final warning.

Regards,

Bart

Bart
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#51

Post by oscarsiziba » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:06 am

If works don't matter then Christ needs to revise His constitution because He states that He is going to reward'..everyone as His works shall be'(Rev 22 12.Probably He needs to know that works don't save,but His grace!
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#52

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:07 am

oscarsiziba wrote:If works don't matter then Christ needs to revise His constitution because He states that He is going to reward'..everyone as His works shall be'(Rev 22 12.Probably He needs to know that works don't save,but His grace!
No-one has said works don't matter. The only works that are the basis of salvation are Christ's works, not ours. For Christians there will be an accounting based upon our works and fruits that relates to reward in the afterlife, not salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#53

Post by oscarsiziba » Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:16 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:
oscarsiziba wrote:
1. Tough and True talk is not the issue. Poor doctrine and a lack of compassion is the issue. Jesus reserved his greatest wrath for the Pharisees who focused on the law, minimized people, and by their doctrine and "tough talk" condemned those who followed their doctrinal error and manipulation. Jesus also demonstrated great care and emotion for those he loved who were suffering. Refer to Lazarus death and his reaction and response to Martha and Mary. Who's talk does your claims resemble most? Christ's or the Pharisee's?



4. Judas is condemned for his betrayal and rejection of Christ, not the act of suicide.

Now, I suggest you take a look at the Purpose of this Board and the Discussion Guidelines. We exist as a community for seekers who are looking to know more of Christ and we have a Statement of Faith there that lays out the tenets we stand by in the form of Orthodox Christianity. We do not exist as a platform for those who espouse substantially different beliefs than those or as a debate board for those who are here convinced of their own positions and not open to examining their beliefs in that regard.

You've made it clear that you have a substantially works based approach to salvation which saddens me because if you haven't discovered what Freedom in Christ is then you are going to have a very frustrating experience attempting to be holy enough to merit the salvation that Christ give freely to those who repent and come to Him and then walk in a position of assurance of that salvation.

More importantly, the error you are promoting here with regard to suicide has very practical implications especially for those who have loved ones who have committed this act of desperation which nobody here has claimed is not a sin nor that everyone who commits such an act is saved by any stretch of the imagination.




While the Bible calls us to have compassion it nevertheless calls us to tell the truth.To those that crucified Jesus,they had had him cut right through their tradition and long held practices.That He sought to bring a different and true understanding as opposed to tradition kindled their hatred and they ,on several ocassions banished him from their vicinity.While compassion should be held for those that are in troublous times it should be made clear that God does not rejoice in the death of the unrepentant.
If Judas is contemned for betraying Jesus only as you intimate above,would you safely say that God was ok with his decision to take his life(remember we are not our own-1 Corinth 6)?Can we still not condemn those that commit suicide and perpetrate and encourage the act?If not,then we can as well take as despicable the issue of taking own's own life!
Look at the passage above(highlighted) and see who has said works don't matter in salvation.
Since this board is made with intention to open people's minds and learn,NOT confirm our beliefs(so much as to call heretic anyone who does not confirm our beliefs or threaten with banishment) would it not be good to approach every issue with an open mind and submission to the Holy Spirit of God (with a desire to learn-may include leaving our tradition and rank if light has shone in the different direction).Let all say what they will and truth cannot be overshadowed by error if,we are looking for it,anyway.
God's ideal children(not just professors of religion without substance thereof) cannot get into acts of desperation as the taking of one's own life.Reason being they make Jesus their burden -bearer and whatever besets them they take to Him as is His call(1 Peter 5 v 7).Such would then not be crushed by anything since they are bearing nothing,but only their cross(Christ's which is light-Matth 11v 28-30).
All the works we do should be driven and sponsored by the power of God lest we physically strain ourselves to nought,for such works done without God are only outward and do not bear a dependence on Christ and are selfish ones,than Christlike.Works therefore follow anyone who lives in Christ and those that seek to do them by their strength seek to doing the impossible-for naturally what will come out is filthy as our unconverted natures are! Has this become clear?Christ ENABLES US.
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#54

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:10 am

While the Bible calls us to have compassion it nevertheless calls us to tell the truth.To those that crucified Jesus,they had had him cut right through their tradition and long held practices.That He sought to bring a different and true understanding as opposed to tradition kindled their hatred and they ,on several ocassions banished him from their vicinity.While compassion should be held for those that are in troublous times it should be made clear that God does not rejoice in the death of the unrepentant.
I don't disagree with any of that. Interestingly enough, the "traditions" of those who pushed the crucification of Christ are very similar to the thems of legalism and works that you are consistently introducing and defending in many of your threads. I've never suggested that the truth not be told nor that suicide is not an extremely difficult and troubling issues, especially for those who remain behind to cope with it.
If Judas is contemned for betraying Jesus only as you intimate above,would you safely say that God was ok with his decision to take his life(remember we are not our own-1 Corinth 6)?Can we still not condemn those that commit suicide and perpetrate and encourage the act?If not,then we can as well take as despicable the issue of taking own's own life!
Look at the passage above(highlighted) and see who has said works don't matter in salvation.
You're making a very simple and elementary error in logic here. My stating that Judas is not condemned before God on the basis of his suicide primarily or alone does not imply that I am saying that Judas is not condemned nor does it imply that I stating that God is OK with suicide. Judas betrayed Christ. Further Judas betrayal of Christ rejected Christ as the Son of God and as one who walked and ministered beside him in effect rejected Christ's deity and atoning sacrifice. Christ Himself made it clear that he went to cross voluntarily and knowingly but also said, "Woe to the one by whose had it comes." It was in the context of this knowlege and remorse that Judas killed himself. His decision was made and his fate sealed before he killed himself.

You're constructing a false choice of options. One does not have to endorse or make insignificant the act of suicide as a sin and affront to God's standards to also recognize that it is not the act of suicide itself that condemns a person ultimately before God. It is Christ and what they do with Him that is determination of our salvation.
Since this board is made with intention to open people's minds and learn,NOT confirm our beliefs(so much as to call heretic anyone who does not confirm our beliefs or threaten with banishment) would it not be good to approach every issue with an open mind and submission to the Holy Spirit of God (with a desire to learn-may include leaving our tradition and rank if light has shone in the different direction).Let all say what they will and truth cannot be overshadowed by error if,we are looking for it,anyway.
An open mind is an important thing. There's such a thing however as having an mind so open that your brain slides out.

What you are suggesting here is not something which our board's purpose is open-minded about. If you're here to understand and show willingness on your part to interact with the purpose of our board and community then you are welcome. If you are here to debate and promote your theology which appears to me to vary significantly from orthodox Christianity then there are better places for you to be.

Did you mention earlier that you are a student? Would you please remind me where you're going to school and what you are studying and perhaps that will help me to understand you better.
God's ideal children(not just professors of religion without substance thereof) cannot get into acts of desperation as the taking of one's own life.Reason being they make Jesus their burden -bearer and whatever besets them they take to Him as is His call(1 Peter 5 v 7).Such would then not be crushed by anything since they are bearing nothing,but only their cross(Christ's which is light-Matth 11v 28-30).
This is quite incorrect. First, God's children by which I presume you mean Christians who have accepted Christ's gift of salvation are perfect positionally before God on the basis of what Christ has done. Further, as Christians when we are saved we begin a life-long process of being conformed to the image of Christ which is known as Sanctification. Christians are not practically perfect. We still sin. However, you are very correct that Christians do have a resource to be used that has a tremendous impact in bringing us closer to what God intends and desires us to be. Christ is our burden bearer and he provides us the Holy Spirit and in Christ is every resource we need to live a Holy life.

Ideally, if we trust in God, we will continually move forward. We are not "sinless" but we should mature and grow and sin less as we are conformed to the image of Christ. In practice it's quite a bit messier than that. Most move forward and backwards and are learning and growing as we go and trust God better as we learn more and trust more in what he's provided.

God's children in the Old Testament and the New Testement have fallen in many instances and committed terrible sins, including suicide, murder, adultery etc. King David is one example of this in the Old Testament (not the suicide but certainly others). Annanias and Sapphira lost their lives for their act of lying to the Holy Spirit and yet there is indication that they were believers and possibly saved.

A great deal of this problem goes to the fact that God and God alone is the judge of whether a person is saved. We can only go by the fruits and evidences in a person's life and frankly, as Christians, we look and when we see people apparantly fall away or commit terrible acts and sins such as suicide it becomes a question for us as to whether that person was ever saved in the first place because we can't imagine someone with God's Spirit within them committing such an act.

It's a legitimate question. The difficulty is that the Scriptures indicate that Christians can sin although when they do so as an act of their will they are arguably rejecting the resources God has given them.

I've come to understand that there are circumstances and situations that can lead to suicide that I believe God will be far more understanding about and forgiving than many Christians. Mental illness in some ways is like cancer. Cancer is a result of sin in the sense that it exists in the world in general. Would you condemn as Christian who dies of Cancer? Some do. Some take the promises of health and healing in the Scriptures and then twist them to condemn those who become ill in this manner as not having enough faith.

I see some similarities in this situation although it's not a perfect analogy by any means. Mental illness and depression have physical foundations and bases as well as emotional ones. For one who is in pain and in the depth of despair, it's not hard to understand why in an act of desperation and pain they would seek to end it even though there is no question that do so is a terrible sin.

Only God knows. I'm content to leave that with Him. I'm not prepared to uniformly condemn every person who has ever committed suicide as not possibly Christian. Frankly, I think anyone who does has in effect made suicide the unpardonable sin, which clearly it is not in Scripture and in effect they are saying to God that their judgment and standards are higher than God's. That's a pretty prideful and serious position to take, don't you think?
All the works we do should be driven and sponsored by the power of God lest we physically strain ourselves to nought,for such works done without God are only outward and do not bear a dependence on Christ and are selfish ones,than Christlike.Works therefore follow anyone who lives in Christ and those that seek to do them by their strength seek to doing the impossible-for naturally what will come out is filthy as our unconverted natures are! Has this become clear?Christ ENABLES US.
Yes, all the works we do should be driven and sponsored by the power of God in our lives. There's no question about what should be done. The issue is whether that means our salvation is based upon that, and thankfully, it is not.

Is this clear?
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#55

Post by oscarsiziba » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:06 am

What is orthodox Christianity?Why does it have a qualifying word?
What do you understand regarding a person's salvation-once saved,always saved?
The works do not makes us saved,but they follow to show that we have been saved.The fruit that a tree bears does not make it bad or good but testifies to its nature,ditto to works.
The thing you call works and seem so bent on condemning as legalistic or Pharisaic was actually commended upon the Pharisees,but Jesus censured the various traditions that they had introduced to make it rigorous and exacting obeying God.It is not the works that were condemned but the spirit behind them and placing more emphasis for grandeur in the eyes of man while the inside was empty.Jesus at a certain time told those that surrounded Him that unless their faith surpassed that of the Pharisees they would not see the kingdom of God.(Matth 5 v 20,23 v23).
If Judas' fate was sealed before He killed himself then it means that God will overlook other things in our lives?Does the Bible not say that every work ,whether good or bad shall be brought before the judgment seat of God/If that be the case,how then can we say that Judas' case was sealed before he took his life/It connotes an element of omission of some acts,then the way of God has loopholes?
It is Christ and what they do with Him that is determination of our salvation.
You are back again at pampering suicide and belittling the importance of human life-even this life that God has afforded us(borrowed commodity).
You are continually calling me one who has errors?What convinces you that you are in the right?
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#56

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:49 am

oscarsiziba wrote:What is orthodox Christianity?Why does it have a qualifying word?
What do you understand regarding a person's salvation-once saved,always saved?
The works do not makes us saved,but they follow to show that we have been saved.The fruit that a tree bears does not make it bad or good but testifies to its nature,ditto to works.
The thing you call works and seem so bent on condemning as legalistic or Pharisaic was actually commended upon the Pharisees,but Jesus censured the various traditions that they had introduced to make it rigorous and exacting obeying God.It is not the works that were condemned but the spirit behind them and placing more emphasis for grandeur in the eyes of man while the inside was empty.Jesus at a certain time told those that surrounded Him that unless their faith surpassed that of the Pharisees they would not see the kingdom of God.(Matth 5 v 20,23 v23).
If Judas' fate was sealed before He killed himself then it means that God will overlook other things in our lives?Does the Bible not say that every work ,whether good or bad shall be brought before the judgment seat of God/If that be the case,how then can we say that Judas' case was sealed before he took his life/It connotes an element of omission of some acts,then the way of God has loopholes?
It is Christ and what they do with Him that is determination of our salvation.
You are back again at pampering suicide and belittling the importance of human life-even this life that God has afforded us(borrowed commodity).
You are continually calling me one who has errors?What convinces you that you are in the right?
Oscar,

1. You have a statement of faith on this board that I have pointed you toward in terms of orthodox Christianity and you are free to examine it and draw your own conclusions.

2. What is your position with regard to salvation and once saved-always saved. Is my suggestion that you believe a Christian can fall in and out of salvation multiple time based upon the presence of unconfessed Sin accurate? I'll be happy to share my position, which is on the board in other locations if you wish to search for it, when you nail down what you're saying.

3. I agree with you that works are evidence or fruit of the tree and have stated as much. They are not the basis of God's work in our life. They are the fruit and evidence of it and as such are important and relevent.

4. I agree with some measure of your statement with regards to the Pharisees and Jesus's response to them. I think you may wish to pay careful attention to that spirit behind their actions you reference.

5. The Christian will stand before God and give account for all in his life. The unsaved person will not. It is the lot of the goats to depart from God's presence into the future destined for them. The judgement you are referring to in terms of accountibility is not one of salvation, but rather accountibility before God and I agree it is important and significant, but the issue of salvation is already settled for those.

This should answer your questions with regard to Judas at the end as well.

Please point to something specific in my statements to you that merit the claim that I am pampering suicides and denying the importance of Human life. Again, be specific.

I am pointing our logical and doctrinal inconsistencies in your comments as error, because this is a public board with many reading who are not participating and therefore it is important to be clear on these issues for the sake of all involved and frankly, I find your thoughts in this area very unorganized and the thinking very undisciplined. That's fine too as we're all at different stages and points on things and there's value in interacting on things to sharpen our focus and understanding. However, I also know, as a former-pastor that many reading this will have very personal responses to a lot of what you are saying because they have friends and loved ones who have committed suicide and for you to imply or state that any who do so are not and cannot be saved, you better have better than what you've put up to this point because those statements require better than that and serve to increase the pain and suffering of people.

That point alone justifies my comment to you to examine the spirit of the Pharisees that you mention and to encourage you to examine your own beliefs and comments.

Please note as well that I am addressing your points comprehensively while you are picking and choosing your response to me and avoiding several direct questions I have made to you. Why is that?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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oscarsiziba
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#57

Post by oscarsiziba » Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:06 am

You think you are 'boldly' taking on my questions,while to me this is not so.Some things I cannot keep on responding to because I would have addressed in my other posts.
Statements of faith are human inventions ans should not be stuck to if they have loopholes.
Will say more need to go and rest.Had a tiresome day at the stadium.
Anyway,my team won :clap:
Adieu
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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Canuckster1127
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#58

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:23 am

oscarsiziba wrote:You think you are 'boldly' taking on my questions,while to me this is not so.Some things I cannot keep on responding to because I would have addressed in my other posts.
Statements of faith are human inventions ans should not be stuck to if they have loopholes.
Will say more need to go and rest.Had a tiresome day at the stadium.
Anyway,my team won :clap:
Adieu
Glad your team won.

Statements of faith are only valuable to the extent that they reflect Scripture. I could have as easily pointed to the Apostles or Nicene Creed. When you're ready you may feel free to state postively what you stand for.

I didn't use the word "boldly". That's quite a different word than the one I used, which was "comprehensively." By it I meant I was addressing every point you raised and answering your questions. You have yet to answer several plain questions I've asked of you.

Your response here is to attribute to me a statement I didn't make, claim you've answered questions in other places without stating where and intimate that you're too busy to address anything further.

That's your perogative, but it seems rather evasive to me.

Blessings,

Bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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oscarsiziba
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#59

Post by oscarsiziba » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:09 am

Why would God give life to the one who despises it so much that she/he prematurely takes it?There is nothing like once-saved ,always saved.That would mean fixing eternity before man dies and sort of fixing his decisions ,as well.
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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Canuckster1127
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#60

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:06 am

oscarsiziba wrote:Why would God give life to the one who despises it so much that she/he prematurely takes it?There is nothing like once-saved ,always saved.That would mean fixing eternity before man dies and sort of fixing his decisions ,as well.
Why does God give life to anyone and why did He send Christ for sinners who were yet in their sins? Grace.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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