Christians who committ suicide

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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#31

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:42 pm

FFC wrote:
zoegirl wrote:especailyl since, in the depths of their depression, often people choose suicide in the desparate means to be with God. Many sincere Christians who have been locked in the battle of depression committ suicide.
Sad but true. I wonder how many of us would admit to feeling like that at times.
Christians get depressed. Christians commit suicide. Many who have never experienced clinical depression can't understand that and I wouldn't wish on them the experience to where they could.

I've experienced it. I understand why it happens. But for the grace of God, as a cancer patient with thyroid imbalances and some deep trauma from my past, I could very easily be a statistic.

Sadly, the church is often times one of the worst listening ears to turn to. Depressed people need immediate and practical help, not sermons, heaping helpings of additional guilt and certainly not indifference and distancing. Thankfully, more Churches and pastors are learning this and learning how and where to turn for help. There's still far too many who need to wake up and smell the prozac.
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#32

Post by zoegirl » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:12 pm

Amen,

two CHristians in my church community commited suicide iwthin the last 9 years.

also have had two of my family members struggle with it....

It's sad that some still view this as a disorder that a "think good thoughts" or "you better seek God out more" is an appropriate cure.
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#33

Post by timboo » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:19 pm

Has anyone else here read about that internet cult (i think on myspace) that has led to the sicide deaths of 16 young ppl in a town in wales (uk here).
there seems to be loads about this subject at the moment- the papers were making out that heath ledger had overdosed i think. either more people are doing it or there is just more publicity.
all of this stuff normalises it and makes it seem almost a regular thing.

the real reason i wanted to post was to ask whether you believe in the power or prayer or not. i have lots of ppl pray for me in the past, with no tangible results i think. obviously you can read whatever you want into events- any positive occurence can be marked off as a helping hand from god. funny how bad events are often conveniently wiped over with 'gods mysterious ways' though.

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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#34

Post by zoegirl » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:34 pm

Absolutely I believe in the power of prayer. But God can work through doctors, nurses, firemen, police officers, other people, and medications.

Just because we set broken legs does not mean we are excluding the work of prayer in that process, just as we prayer that there are wise doctors and compassionate nurses to help someone through a heart attack in addition to His healing.

And we would not avoid setting a broken leg because of a mistaken idea that to do so indicates a weak faith. But I think there are those in the Christian community who regard depression as a weakness of faith.

I think depression numbers among these processes where God works through inspiring people and discoveries as well as working through people's minds.
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#35

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:45 pm

timboo wrote:Has anyone else here read about that internet cult (i think on myspace) that has led to the sicide deaths of 16 young ppl in a town in wales (uk here).
there seems to be loads about this subject at the moment- the papers were making out that heath ledger had overdosed i think. either more people are doing it or there is just more publicity.
all of this stuff normalises it and makes it seem almost a regular thing.

the real reason i wanted to post was to ask whether you believe in the power or prayer or not. i have lots of ppl pray for me in the past, with no tangible results i think. obviously you can read whatever you want into events- any positive occurence can be marked off as a helping hand from god. funny how bad events are often conveniently wiped over with 'gods mysterious ways' though.
It goes to the question of free will. God gives us a degree of free will to determine our own choices and destiny. With the power to do good comes the power also to do evil.

Prayer for someone doesn't override their power to make some choices on their own. While we have the power to make choices. We don't have the power to choose the consequences.

I agree that people, even Christians can have a tendency to point to anything good that happens as from God and then to imagine anything that isn't good doesn't come for God. I think that comes from a few different things. First, we judge good and evil from our perspective and assume that because something affects us positively it must be good and if it affects us negatively it must be bad. God's perspective is both different than ours and His nature is above our ability to understand or to judge completely. The fact is, that if God is omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing) then there is nothing that happens without his knowledge and either His doing it or allowing it to happen, therefore He is responsible for all things.

We can only know those things that He reveals to us as to why those things are.

There are a lot of people commiting suicide in many ways. Immediate killing of onesself is one way and I suspect there are many instances where someone does it and it is ascribed to something else. People drive cares over cliffs on purpose that are called accidents. Overdoses are called accidental that are really intentional. People commit crime and pretend to draw a weapon so police will shoot them. There are all sorts of instances where only God knows.

Then again, people eat poorly knowing it is killing them. People fail to exercise. People fail to go to the doctor then they are having symptoms. There are elements of degrees as well to the question. Sometimes it's intentional. Sometimes it's neglect.

I do believe in the power of prayer. There is evidence posted on the main board of studies done for patients being prayed for who have better recovery rates than those not. People question whether it is prayer of the benefit of being in a community of caring people or someother elements of combination of it. That's a fair question. It's a hard thing to nail down, but the fact is when someone wants to live, is focused on life which is a gift from God and is open and willing to allow God to work in their lives, I think He does so if it's in accoradance with His greater plan and will. God has give us the power to resist Him if we choose. He certainly can override that, He's God after all, but for reasons i don't completely understand, He's chosen to honor some of our choices and allow us and others to be affected by the consequences. I can't answer why with complete confidence. I know He does step in and perform miracles as well at times. The ultimate miracle is the coming of Christ, His death and resurrection and a future secure with Him. In the face of that, everything else is temporal. In the face of that, I can accept and work within all the consequences of the temporal secure in eternithy.

Some people see that as a cop-out. I see that as the heart and soul of faith and what it means to be a Christian.
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#36

Post by B. W. » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:55 am

+
The Splinter of Depression

Clinical depression is torment and punishment that do battle within one's mind. Combinations of medication and counseling help and are effective and need ones full support. However, there is one more path for a Christian to overcome such thought and it is discovered in learning to love God. This is a very painful path as it confronts a person with love. It cuts and digs out what is in the heart removing fear by means of God like love that is to be shared, not hoarded. Faith without works, well, you know the answer...

The battle is in the mind — the heart. A battle with one's free will when confronted with choice. A person is confronted with thoughts of escaping into God's love but God's perfect love cast out the fear, the dread, within one's soul, the very terror that caused one to seek and justify escape.

God's perfect love causes one to get their focus off of self and look at others around you. This is where the battle intensifies as those battling such depression simply lost the ability to care what others may or may not think. Perfect Love cast out such fear that enslaves one to such mindsets and that is why God's love confronts with a new pain: a valley of decision.

This battling struggle is God's love casting out the fear and torment of the heart. This fear and punishing torment refuses to leave easily. God's love acts like a scalpel knife cutting away the filth surrounding the heart. How do we recognize God's love doing such massive surgery on our hearts?

It begins by making a person slowly realize what effect suicide would have on family, spouse, friends, children, even on the one discovering the 'after the act,' and etc. When a person battles suicidal thinking — many state that they do not much care about how the act would affect anyone. However, God's love begins to cause a change in mind to think about that struggle of 'love of self verses living a life bent toward reflecting Godly love to those around you.'

People begin to think, “How would my act would affect whom, instead of the benefit it has for me to just escape…” God's love causes a person to 'weigh in' and this is describe as measuring if one loves God more than self. Harsh sounding, yes it is. That is how love cast out fear.

Listen to this Parable of the Splinter:

Any festering splinter in ones own flesh needs removed and the infection drained. If not, the pain worsens making the whole body sick and eventually resulting in feverish death. It is painful to remove the splinter from the flesh. Many people fear the master surgeon's knife and probe more than what the splinter causes. The good physician applies medication and even consoles the patient with the comfort of counseling but one look at the probe and the knife — the patient cringes and flees the surgery.

Medication can slow and stop the infection; however, only temporarily. The splinter remains embedded and soon the pus rebuilds and festers in the wound. Kind words may help wipe away the pus draining from the wound but the infection remains. God knows what the patient needs — the probe scalpel to remove the splinter so the infection is cured.

Perfect love cast out fear. It is painful to have fear and dread cast out. One look at the blade and the probe and one feels like running but be steady oh my soul — the Lord is the great physician. Hold still, his love will confront your soul, draining the pus and removing the splinter that causes so much pain.

This will hurt but only for a little while; for after the splinter is removed — freedom is found. How do you have this splinter of depression and suicide removed? One way to begin is with prayers that seek how to love God with all thy being. In doing so you'll learn to deny self. It will involve, as a Christian, an awakening to what such an act will cause to those around you and confront you with this: would love destroy those around me or instead consider them first over my own desire?

What affect would my demise affect my children, my spouse, my family, friends, people not yet even known - they need you alive to shine that type of God's love that never leaves nor forsakes them. In doing so the splinter is removed and life found. Would perfect love forsake those that depend upon you?

That is one of the painful question God's love asks that begins the process of casting out fear and draining the pus. The rest is up to you and the Lord — the great Physician to decide when the surgery begins.

After Thought:

I am writing from experience with my own battle with depression fought over 25 years ago - The Lord caused me to overcome - no more pain - voidness - anxiety in over 25 years and it never returns. I never took medication for it and had the Lord dig it painfully out of me through his love. May any of you suffering also find the same freedom I have but be forewarned — it comes with a cost - the cost of God's love casting out what is so familiar within you.
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#37

Post by FFC » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:50 pm

zoegirl wrote:Amen,

two CHristians in my church community commited suicide iwthin the last 9 years.

also have had two of my family members struggle with it....

It's sad that some still view this as a disorder that a "think good thoughts" or "you better seek God out more" is an appropriate cure.
..or my favorite, which I read in a well known Christian writers book "depression is fear and anger and the root of it is pride. So basically it is the result of sin we have let into our life...all I know is this author seems to have been left behind when compassion was being handed out. :esurprised: ;)
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#38

Post by Canuckster1127 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:16 pm

FFC wrote:
zoegirl wrote:Amen,

two CHristians in my church community commited suicide iwthin the last 9 years.

also have had two of my family members struggle with it....

It's sad that some still view this as a disorder that a "think good thoughts" or "you better seek God out more" is an appropriate cure.
..or my favorite, which I read in a well known Christian writers book "depression is fear and anger and the root of it is pride. So basically it is the result of sin we have let into our life...all I know is this author seems to have been left behind when compassion was being handed out. :esurprised: ;)
Depression is not a single source condition in every case.

There's no question in my mind and experience that there are spiritual issues that can contribute to depression. In my case I've identified and continue to deal with in my own life resentment and bitterness. It's a constant battle in that regards, just as it is for any Christian in the process of sanctification.

However, there are other issues as well that can include genetic predisposition, hormonal imbalances, general health and fitness, etc.

One of the more effective therepeutic methods in dealing with depression currently is cognative therapy which is in effect relearning thinking and reaction patterns to stressors. I've used and continue to use that as a source to battle the depression I struggle with still and I find it helps along with prayer, exercise and when I need them, anti-depressants. I had cancer 20 years ago too of the thryroid and when my thyroid replacement hormose gets out of balance it impacts many areas of my life, including my emotional tenor.

I'm fine with those who focus on the spiritual and whose testimonies include healing or a moving from depression solely on that basis. I don't doubt their testimonies or experience and I don't doubt there is important help there for many who wrestle from it now.

What I'm not fine with are those people who imagine that their experience or beliefs in that regard are what every person needs and that there are not other elements present like those above that require other means of assistance and treatment.

Those who take it one step further and then use their experience or belief to heap guilt upon anyone who doesn't take the same path or for whom it doesn't work as somehow less sincere or spiritual than they are dismay me to no end.

Asking a severely depressed person to "get over it" or "pray about it" and move on is like asking someone with a broken leg to do the same and then stand up and run. It's a multi-sourced condition and doesn't always have simple immediate answers.
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#39

Post by andyredeemed » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:05 am

A friend of mine lost her husband to suicide a couple of year ago following about nine years of a depressive illness. She talks about depression as being a terminal illness, that her husband died of depression. I think I go along with that in general. How responsible,in Gods eyes, is someone for thier own actions when their ability to make rational, objective descisions is so compromised by an illness?
God is good

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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#40

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:47 am

andyredeemed wrote:A friend of mine lost her husband to suicide a couple of year ago following about nine years of a depressive illness. She talks about depression as being a terminal illness, that her husband died of depression. I think I go along with that in general. How responsible,in Gods eyes, is someone for thier own actions when their ability to make rational, objective descisions is so compromised by an illness?
Only God can answer that, but I think as Christians, it is not our actions that save us, it is what Christ has done for us. Suicide can be and to some degree will always be a selfish, desperate act. I think there may well be shame for many who stand before God, as Christians and give an account for the manner in which they've lived their lives and if they've taken that gift and ended it on their own. Suicide is not a fruit of the Spirit. There is a disease element to it as well for many however and I'm confident that God will sort it out.
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#41

Post by oscarsiziba » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:58 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:
phiver4 wrote:I have always wondered about someone who has given their life to Christ and later on commits suicide. Is this forgivable in God's eyes?
I find no reason in Scripture to assume that this is an unforgivable sin. That certainly doesn't condone it however.
When one commits suicide it means they had been trusting to self,not Christ and have failed to contain the pressure and decide to end 'their' lives.Christ says we are not ours ,but temples of God and therefore to kill ourselves would be to take over charge from Christ-that is usurpation(same as that of people that live indifferent to the word of God).
Now I conclude that since one dies by hanging self there is no time to ask for forgiveness,if they wld be sorry they would stop at the very brink of committing suicide.To kill is forgiven,but when you kill yourself who apologises on your behalf?
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#42

Post by B. W. » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:57 am

oscarsiziba wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:
phiver4 wrote:I have always wondered about someone who has given their life to Christ and later on commits suicide. Is this forgivable in God's eyes?
I find no reason in Scripture to assume that this is an unforgivable sin. That certainly doesn't condone it however.
When one commits suicide it means they had been trusting to self,not Christ and have failed to contain the pressure and decide to end 'their' lives.Christ says we are not ours ,but temples of God and therefore to kill ourselves would be to take over charge from Christ-that is usurpation(same as that of people that live indifferent to the word of God).
Now I conclude that since one dies by hanging self there is no time to ask for forgiveness,if they wld be sorry they would stop at the very brink of committing suicide.To kill is forgiven,but when you kill yourself who apologises on your behalf?
There are various factors in play in a Christian's life (biological, life events, psychological issues, Christian maturity, illness, etc). God is the final judge and is more merciful than our judgments are regarding this matter. We do not condone such behavior but nevertheless a few Christians do give into the impulse for this act for various reasons. Suicide can be viewed by some as an escape to heaven but that may be a trick of the evil one to bail out of life before a better blessing of life comes. I ask those thinking such thoughts not to bail out - blessing will come.

Never forget, your life is a blessing. Use it for blessing others and in this you find new life for yourself as well as your purpose. Perfect mature Godly love does cast out fear. We are called to love our brothers and sisters in our assemblies (churches). With this type of love enacted what would you think would be the result in our local churches as well as the church universal? People would find their significance and purpose for why each of us was made and our reason for being here. Such love would make suicide so very rare. So I ask, are we up to the task of living what 1 John teaches?
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#43

Post by Canuckster1127 » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:09 am

oscarsiziba wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:
phiver4 wrote:I have always wondered about someone who has given their life to Christ and later on commits suicide. Is this forgivable in God's eyes?
I find no reason in Scripture to assume that this is an unforgivable sin. That certainly doesn't condone it however.
When one commits suicide it means they had been trusting to self,not Christ and have failed to contain the pressure and decide to end 'their' lives.Christ says we are not ours ,but temples of God and therefore to kill ourselves would be to take over charge from Christ-that is usurpation(same as that of people that live indifferent to the word of God).
Now I conclude that since one dies by hanging self there is no time to ask for forgiveness,if they wld be sorry they would stop at the very brink of committing suicide.To kill is forgiven,but when you kill yourself who apologises on your behalf?
Suicide is a sin, no doubt. The issue is whether it is an unforgivable sin. I believe suicide is a grave sin which does usurp God's gift of life, however, for the Christian, the forgiveness for such a sin is not a result of our asking forgiveness in the moments following such an act, but rather where forgiveness resides for all sin, which is in the atonement of Christ.

There will be shame. There may be a loss of reward. Salvation is not overridden by sin, and in the end it is God that makes that judgment not us.
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

#44

Post by B. W. » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:31 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:Suicide is a sin, no doubt. The issue is whether it is an unforgivable sin. I believe suicide is a grave sin which does usurp God's gift of life, however, for the Christian, the forgiveness for such a sin is not a result of our asking forgiveness in the moments following such an act, but rather where forgiveness resides for all sin, which is in the atonement of Christ.

There will be shame. There may be a loss of reward. Salvation is not overridden by sin, and in the end it is God that makes that judgment not us.
Thank you Canuckster, very well said. Amen
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Re: Christians who committ suicide

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Post by oscarsiziba » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:05 pm

]

I find no reason in Scripture to assume that this is an unforgivable sin. That certainly doesn't condone it however.[/quote]

Suicide is a sin, no doubt. The issue is whether it is an unforgivable sin. I believe suicide is a grave sin which does usurp God's gift of life, however, for the Christian, the forgiveness for such a sin is not a result of our asking forgiveness in the moments following such an act, but rather where forgiveness resides for all sin, which is in the atonement of Christ.

There will be shame. There may be a loss of reward. Salvation is not overridden by sin, and in the end it is God that makes that judgment not us.[/quote]

Salvation is indeed overridden by sin when you put into perspective that God gave men unrestricted practice of free choice.Why would God grant eternity and life to one who hates it?(the one who commits suicide)Yes ,God loves us but not much to force us to live besides and outside our will.Salvation is not overridden by sin to those that chose it as Christ Himself gives victory to those that want to escape it.Anyway,what is Scriptural definition of sin?In saying God can override our choices to give us life is to say he is a dictator who imposes Himself on us-our free wills should be His greatest principle upon which He grants us life(because we would have chosen) and to some death because they do not rejoice in holy things
I still hold that the one who takes his/her life is forgiveable,but not forgiven(when does one have the time to ask for pardon when he/she has passed away?)The dead do not praise or worship God neither are they in heaven.Psalm 115 v 17,Acts 2 v 29&34.
Like Balaam, they are angry at those who would prevent their ruin.

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