Saved... An easy way out?

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Himantolophus
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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#16

Post by Himantolophus » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:23 pm

If someone lived a life of sin and became hardened in their ways then how could their heart change towards God on their deathbed? Your words seem to show a superficial understanding of what it means to accept Christ, that is, just say the magic words and your saved. I do not believe that is the case and instead see that it is a heart response as much as it is intellectual ascent. One can not just generate a heart response in an instant.
well, there are a lot of examples of people who go through crazy drug stages and become alcoholics or even people who murder someone else. They want to give up their past and regret it. There are many people who will never change for God, that's true. But the majority of people will want to know they are going to Heaven when they die. And if being saved does this, they will want to become saved.
There is no longer a "why" when one comes to Christ. Living morally just becomes a way to live. The question becomes, "why not live a moral life?" to those who have accepted Christ. If it is by grace we are saved, then as Paul writes: "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?" (Romans 6:1) How does Paul himself respond to this question?
yes, but Man by his very nature is greedy and selfish. We may "want" to live by the Commandments, but no Man ever can do that. So, is every person on Earth condemned? I would think God would recognize that we all sin and at least compare and contrast our sins to others before deciding our fate...
Even on the Egyptian "scale" there is a side with sin. Therefore both M.Teresa and Stalin stand condemned under God's judgment. Even if M.Teresa was leaps and bounds ahead of Stalin, she still fails to meet the perfection required to be with God in whom complete holiness and righteousness is found.
no one but God himself is perfect so what is the standard that everyone is judged by? I know no one knows but I was just making a point.
I think K has the right of it. Being saved is much more than just getting a "get out of hell free" card. It is the realization of who we are in relation to God, the awareness of the need for a savior, and an awakening of the love for Christ.
[/quote]
I know God is all-powerful, aware that Jesus is our Savior, and have a love for Christ. Who has the right to say that I'm not saved? Why does saved have to become a buzzword for born-again Christians. Can't anyone believing in the above statement become "saved". Why are some born-agains so self-righteous sometimes?

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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#17

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:31 pm

Himantolophus wrote:
If someone lived a life of sin and became hardened in their ways then how could their heart change towards God on their deathbed? Your words seem to show a superficial understanding of what it means to accept Christ, that is, just say the magic words and your saved. I do not believe that is the case and instead see that it is a heart response as much as it is intellectual ascent. One can not just generate a heart response in an instant.
well, there are a lot of examples of people who go through crazy drug stages and become alcoholics or even people who murder someone else. They want to give up their past and regret it. There are many people who will never change for God, that's true. But the majority of people will want to know they are going to Heaven when they die. And if being saved does this, they will want to become saved.
You say "Heaven" like it is an incentive to one dying. CS Lewis painted a story of the afterlife in The Great Divorce where many who were in not saved at death and resided in "Hell" were taken to Heaven, and yet when they are taken there they discover they would much prefer Hell. To them Heaven was a dreadful place. Indeed, God to the one who does not know Him and to their surprise upon dying actually exists, a feeling of dread as though living a nightmare, would no doubt overwhelm such a person. Such dread is not due to any thing on God's part, but would be spawned entirely from within the person themselves knowing who they were throughout life and what they thought of such a Being.

Atheists are often angry at God for all the pain and suffering He allowed in life. God's existence would only make their infuriation with God possible (since God actually exists). Such a person upon seeing God, along with a feeling of dread, would also have a great deal of bitterness and resentment and anger. As I have seen several Atheists reason, God does not exist, and if He did, I want nothing to do with Him. Such a person is god, they are judge and juror, they are above God because the true God to them is immoral. Such a person thinks they have a higher understanding of all matters than God Himself, and such a person will never accept Christ nor would they want to accept Christ, in this life or the hereafter, because they do not agree with God. They can not deny or put aside their own self and allow God to be God in their lives. So God can only give them what they want - a life apart from Himself.

Bill Craig in a debate about God's omni-benevolence and hell followed CS Lewis' thought saying:
Bill Craig wrote:it's possible that God would permit the damned to leave hell and go to heaven but that they freely refuse to do so. It is possible that persons in hell grow only more implacable in their hatred of God as time goes on. Rather than repent and ask God for forgiveness, they continue to curse Him and reject Him. God thus has no choice but to leave them where they are. In such a case, the door to hell is locked, as John Paul Sartre said, from the inside. The damned thus choose eternal separation from God. So, again, so as long as any of these scenarios is even possible, it invalidates the objection that God's perfect justice is incompatible with everlasting separation from God.
So it is far from clear that everyone would desire "Heaven". Heaven to the one who has not accepted Christ and does not desire God would indeed be an eternal hell. Yet, to those of us who love God and want to be with Him, it is "heaven" because we are with our maker and desire to be in His Kingdom not Ours.
Himantolophus wrote:
There is no longer a "why" when one comes to Christ. Living morally just becomes a way to live. The question becomes, "why not live a moral life?" to those who have accepted Christ. If it is by grace we are saved, then as Paul writes: "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?" (Romans 6:1) How does Paul himself respond to this question?
yes, but Man by his very nature is greedy and selfish. We may "want" to live by the Commandments, but no Man ever can do that. So, is every person on Earth condemned? I would think God would recognize that we all sin and at least compare and contrast our sins to others before deciding our fate...
Yes, every person is in the awful position of being condemned.

Paul writes in Romans 2 something you would agree with regarding a just and fair judgment:
  • 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
    7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
    9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
    10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11For there is no partiality with God.
    12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
    13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
    14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
    16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Now I would actually agree with a large part of what you are getting at in your posts. Anyone with a moral sense can see that Mother Teresa is a damn site morally better than Stalin or Hitler. However, after setting the fair standard by which all will be judged, Paul continues in Romans 3 quoting from Psalms and Isaiah:
  • 10as it is written,
    THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
    11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
    THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
    12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
    THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
    THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
    13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
    WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
    "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
    14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
    15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
    16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
    17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
    18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
    19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
    20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
So there is an issue. We all standard condemned by the Law which we continue to fail at upholding. However, Paul does not leave us with the bad news. He continues with good news:
  • 21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
    23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
    25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the orbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
    26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
    27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
    28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
    29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
    30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
    31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Himantolophus wrote:
I think K has the right of it. Being saved is much more than just getting a "get out of hell free" card. It is the realization of who we are in relation to God, the awareness of the need for a savior, and an awakening of the love for Christ.
I know God is all-powerful, aware that Jesus is our Savior, and have a love for Christ. Who has the right to say that I'm not saved? Why does saved have to become a buzzword for born-again Christians. Can't anyone believing in the above statement become "saved". Why are some born-agains so self-righteous sometimes?
What gives you the right to silence the beliefs of others. Is this not what you are really wanting? These people who believe you are not save may simply be concerned for you and your life and you are taking offense? y:-/ I would not be offended in the least if a Muslim believed me to be damned (in fact I would expect it) and out of concern tried to teach me about an possible opportunity to be saved via Muhammad vouching for me in the afterlife. I would be flattered that they cared enough to try convince me of something they believe to be true.

Obviously "these people" of which you speak are the ones you have issues with so your argument is really with them. Trying to box the many who post here into the same box as these people, and then take your frustration out with arguments which have nothing to do with us but everything to do with them is just not going to work.

From your comments I would say you are saved. However, to try give you an understanding of "these people" in your life: I have found many protestant Pentecostals, unless they "feel" you are saved by knowing you have "felt" God in the same spiritual ways they have, will find it hard to accept you as being truly saved or truly Christian. However, your argument is with them, and not necessarily people here on this board.

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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#18

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:56 pm

Himantolophus wrote:But the majority of people will want to know they are going to Heaven when they die. And if being saved does this, they will want to become saved.
...In reply, Jesus declared "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born-again"..."no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." -John 3:3,5-6.

But when the kindness and love of God our savior appeared, he saved us...He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit... -Titus 3:4,5,6.
Himantolophus wrote: So, is every person on Earth condemned?
Short answer: Yes, every single one...

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God... -Romans 3:23
Himantolophus wrote: I would think God would recognize that we all sin and at least compare and contrast our sins to others before deciding our fate...
The god that compares and contrasts sin before letting you into Heaven isn't the God of the Bible. You will have an easy time with this accountant-god: he's running most religions.

For the God of the Bible, sin is sin. Think of it like a pregnancy. You can be a little pregnant or well on your way...said another way: you can be a Mother Teresa or a Josef Stalin, you're still a sinner in need of God's mercy...

Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. -Luke 13:2-3
Himantolophus wrote:no one but God himself is perfect so what is the standard that everyone is judged by?
Here is your standard:

Jesus is speaking, I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
-John 5:24

and again,

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe... -Romans 3:21-22

Notice that the righteousness comes from God and is not a product of what you do.
Himantolophus wrote:I know God is all-powerful, aware that Jesus is our Savior, and have a love for Christ
Great. So do a lot of people:

Jesus is speaking, Not every one who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven...many will say to me 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers! -Matthew 7:21-23

"Away from me you evildoers!" OUCH! You'll have to pardon me now because I'm going to be brutally honest as only a truck driver can:

Any moron can believe in God. God wants you to believe him, not in him.
Himantolophus wrote:Why are some born-agains so self-righteous sometimes?
The Pharisees in Jesus' day were self-righteous. "Religious" people - born-again or not - are often self-righteous. Those that grow in their personal relationship with Jesus lose the self-righteousness as they lose religion. Don't worry about it.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#19

Post by Himantolophus » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:44 pm

What gives you the right to silence the beliefs of others. Is this not what you are really wanting? These people who believe you are not save may simply be concerned for you and your life and you are taking offense? I would not be offended in the least if a Muslim believed me to be damned (in fact I would expect it) and out of concern tried to teach me about an possible opportunity to be saved via Muhammad vouching for me in the afterlife. I would be flattered that they cared enough to try convince me of something they believe to be true.
I can't and won't be able to silence anyone's belief in salvation no9r did I mean any offense when I talked about these "certain" people. Yes, it is great that they care enough for my salvation, but I think sometimes they have the attitude of "I'm going to heaven and you're not" and not the attidude you say: "I want to make sure accept God and Jesus". That is what I meant by the "self-righteousness".

Even born-agains are not 100% certain they are going to Heaven. for all we know, it could be any of the "Gods" in the world. I don't believe in those other Gods. I am just making a point. They have no right to approach someone unsolicited and automatically assume they are "spiritually unhealthy" and in need of Christ. Some people are secure in their religious beliefs and take offense to someone saying otherwise (no matter how good the intentions may be).

I am getting into the "forcing beliefs" thing and that is another post so I'll shut up.

Thanks for explaining this stuff to me.

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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#20

Post by Canuckster1127 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:46 pm

Some people are secure in their religious beliefs and take offense to someone saying otherwise (no matter how good the intentions may be).
Do you think it's possible you may be taking offense yourself in a similar manner?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#21

Post by Himantolophus » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:08 pm

Do you think it's possible you may be taking offense yourself in a similar manner?
well, since some of my relatives are born-again and the rest are Catholics you can imagine that religion is a taboo subject at get-togethers :ebiggrin: so, yes, we do take offense to it I guess!

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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

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Post by Canuckster1127 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:14 pm

Himantolophus wrote:
Do you think it's possible you may be taking offense yourself in a similar manner?
well, since some of my relatives are born-again and the rest are Catholics you can imagine that religion is a taboo subject at get-togethers :ebiggrin: so, yes, we do take offense to it I guess!
:lol: I understand. Think of it this way. If you were convinced in your heart that you had found the way to peace, happiness and eternal life, and someone you loved appeared unsure or unclear on things, wouldn't you choose, because you love them to do what you could to nudge them in that direction?

People do overdo it and I understand some of the possible frustration, but if you look at it a little from their point of view you'll see that it is an expression of love toward you and perhaps it will be a little less offensive.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#23

Post by JCSx2 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:33 pm

Being "saved" is not easy..... You have to REALLY TRUELY Believe in your heart; with your whole heart.

Some people cannot do this even though they know all the "Religious Information" that is out there concerning Christianity.

If you say I believe but you genuinely do not then God knows, he wont let posers in, they are nonbelievers.

The thief on the Cross...not a poser; some of these late night T.V. evangelist; well only God knows for sure but I have my doubts.

It is not a matter of believing from you first conscious decision as a child to believe, or believing on you death bed. It is a matter of honestly believing in Christ as you personal savor, who died on the cross for our sins.

All current murders on death row have an opportunity to get in to Heaven before they die. The families of the victims may have issues with that but it is not their choice.

I do believe that believing incorporates honestly repenting of your sins and so basically you invite Christ in to your life and honestly be sorry for the things you have done.

As for judgment, Christ will be on his Great White Throne, everyone will be Judged while being accepted in to Heaven for those going to Heaven. Not sure how that will work. But it is a motivator to live a more Christ like life.

We as Humans may have our opinions on who we would let in or not, but it is not our choice, it is Gods. He made it clear what needs to be done.
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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#24

Post by JCSx2 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:46 pm

Himantolophus wrote:
Even born-agains are not 100% certain they are going to Heaven. for all we know, it could be any of the "Gods" in the world. I don't believe in those other Gods. I am just making a point.
I have issue with this, I DO KNOW, I AM 100% certain, and nothing anyone says will change my mind. I spent 20 years following pagan religions after turning away from Christ. All I can say is I know when the truth slapped me in the face; I rededicated my life to Christ.

People are spiritual beings, we are not meant to be here on earth forever. There is something in our genetic makeup that points us to a higher plane of existence. Satan took an opportunity and made other religions to take some of us with him. He even made some of them very peaceful and attractive, to get the tree huggers on board with his plan.

Others he makes them believe in the religion of science, need proof of everything to believe. Science is not a bad thing at all; it turns in to a tool of Satan only when it holds people back from the truth of God. I know that last statement sounds crazy, but scientists can believe in God as well as be exceptionally academic.
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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#25

Post by Himantolophus » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:19 pm

People are spiritual beings, we are not meant to be here on earth forever. There is something in our genetic makeup that points us to a higher plane of existence. Satan took an opportunity and made other religions to take some of us with him. He even made some of them very peaceful and attractive, to get the tree huggers on board with his plan.
Ok, but just as you took offense to the statement you quoted (about how no one is assured of going to Heaven), people will sure take offense to the statement you just said above. How can you straight-up declare that the moderate Protestants, the Catholics, the Jews, the Orthodox Christians, the Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. are on the path to Satan? Yes, humans have a soul and we seek a higher power, but saying that all of the other religions were "made by Satan to take some with him" justifies what I said about born agains being self-righteous.

And what religion is a "tree hugger"?
Others he makes them believe in the religion of science, need proof of everything to believe. Science is not a bad thing at all; it turns in to a tool of Satan only when it holds people back from the truth of God. I know that last statement sounds crazy, but scientists can believe in God as well as be exceptionally academic.
I don't think you should change subjects here but first you say science is a "religion". Then, in the next sentence you say you can believe in God and science together. Does that mean you believe in two religions at the same time? What part of science should we believe in then?

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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#26

Post by JCSx2 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:48 am

Himantolophus wrote:
People are spiritual beings, we are not meant to be here on earth forever. There is something in our genetic makeup that points us to a higher plane of existence. Satan took an opportunity and made other religions to take some of us with him. He even made some of them very peaceful and attractive, to get the tree huggers on board with his plan.
Ok, but just as you took offense to the statement you quoted (about how no one is assured of going to Heaven), people will sure take offense to the statement you just said above. How can you straight-up declare that the moderate Protestants, the Catholics, the Jews, the Orthodox Christians, the Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. are on the path to Satan? Yes, humans have a soul and we seek a higher power, but saying that all of the other religions were "made by Satan to take some with him" justifies what I said about born agains being self-righteous.

And what religion is a "tree hugger"?
I actually was not offended, I just had an issue with it. No offence was taken.

I am confused, are you saying that moderate Protestants, the Catholics, the Orthodox Christians are not Christians? If they fall outside of what a Christian is please point it out to me. As I see it a Christian is a Christian, we believe in a particular belief that makes us so. We may have differences on some issues that I think some Christians need to chill out with, we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ. We are all Christians, we need to focus on our beliefs that bring us together not tare us apart. But being sinful humans that may be difficult for us.

The Jews, They are Gods chosen people, I am still studying the Bible to figure that one out. He has a plan for them and I am not sure how it will work out. As for me and my attitude towards Jews; I feel they need respect, no reason to hate them. They were there from the near start as Gods Chosen people, the Children of Jacob makes up the twelve tribes of Israel. I have no disrespect for them at all; I hope they get what Gods wants for them.


The Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. are on the path to Satan I can say this with certainty because the bible says so. It is not being self-righteous; it is understanding the word of God.

Take a look at the first & second commandment.

Exodus 20:1-6

1 And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.


I am confused; do you not believe that the Bible is the Holy Word of God Inspired by God?

Muslims are from the Blood line if Ishmael, the not chosen son of Abraham mothered by his maid servant Hagar. Isaac the chosen son, promised by God is the one in the blood line of Jesus.

And finally I was a Wicca before I received Christ in my life again. When I was Wicca, we referred to ourselves as tree huggers due to our close connection to nature.

PRAISE GOD I woke up and realized I was taking the path of Satan.

And I do thank God everyday for accepting me back in to his fold.
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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#27

Post by JCSx2 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:09 am

Others he makes them believe in the religion of science, need proof of everything to believe. Science is not a bad thing at all; it turns in to a tool of Satan only when it holds people back from the truth of God. I know that last statement sounds crazy, but scientists can believe in God as well as be exceptionally academic.
I don't think you should change subjects here but first you say science is a "religion". Then, in the next sentence you say you can believe in God and science together. Does that mean you believe in two religions at the same time? What part of science should we believe in then?[/quote]

Well actually it was badly stated, sorry about that. Do I believe that science is a religion, NO. But it can be a strongly held belief Just like people of Religious affiliations have towards their beliefs. Some people of science totally disregard and openly dispute the Bible and word of God because of their total belief that you need to be able to see and make sense of EVERYTHING, or get some sort of an idea about stuff we do not understand. The Evolutionary Tree is a good example here. Do we understand all these bones and fossils we have found? Not really but we still put them together though as best as we can in an order that makes sense to us. This does not make it correct but it helps humans come to grips with where we came from without even considering God as our creator. Make sense? I hope so.

I feel that Religious people can be scientific without compromising their Religious beliefs. This is not a water and oil situation here, it can be melded together in to a wonderful academic experience while still Glorifying God.
Definition of a Veteran. A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including his life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

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Himantolophus
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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#28

Post by Himantolophus » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:37 pm

I am confused, are you saying that moderate Protestants, the Catholics, the Orthodox Christians are not Christians? If they fall outside of what a Christian is please point it out to me. As I see it a Christian is a Christian, we believe in a particular belief that makes us so. We may have differences on some issues that I think some Christians need to chill out with, we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ. We are all Christians, we need to focus on our beliefs that bring us together not tare us apart. But being sinful humans that may be difficult for us.
ok, thanks for elaborating on what religions you were talking about. I didn't know you were lumping all Christian religions together. Pardon my stupidity there, but many born-again Christians include Catholics and Orthodox Christians into the "un-saved" category (which means they aren't going to heaven I guess). As long as all Christians are considered Christians, you are entitled to your opinion on the other religions. I don't agree that all of those people are doomed to Hell, but I'll leave it be.

I feel that Religious people can be scientific without compromising their Religious beliefs. This is not a water and oil situation here, it can be melded together in to a wonderful academic experience while still Glorifying God.
yes they can do both, but taken to an extreme it falls out of science and into fantasy...
Well actually it was badly stated, sorry about that. Do I believe that science is a religion, NO. But it can be a strongly held belief Just like people of Religious affiliations have towards their beliefs. Some people of science totally disregard and openly dispute the Bible and word of God because of their total belief that you need to be able to see and make sense of EVERYTHING, or get some sort of an idea about stuff we do not understand. The Evolutionary Tree is a good example here. Do we understand all these bones and fossils we have found? Not really but we still put them together though as best as we can in an order that makes sense to us. This does not make it correct but it helps humans come to grips with where we came from without even considering God as our creator. Make sense? I hope so.
yes, every theory explaining origins and basically everything pre-civilization is up to some sort of uncertainty. But evolution is based on numerous convergent lines of evidence from all fields of science. All of the evidence points to change over time. A good example of this is the fact that we don't see the same species from the beginning of time till now. There is not one species in the Beginning that is alive today (and Man has only appeared in the most recent rock layers). That means that they changed. So, while no one will "prove" how it all happened, we have a ton of evidence out there for evolution of some sort. The mechanism of macroevolution is the only unknown, microevolution is proven.

And before I go any further, I've discussed all of this in "God and Science" so I'm not going to rehash all of this. I think you can believed in modern science AND the Bible with no problems. And getting back on topic, I don't expect belief in evolution will get you put in Hell. Science is done totally independent of God, so I don't see how practicing or following it will have any impact on you spiritually?

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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#29

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:28 pm

Himantolophus wrote: but many born-again Christians include Catholics and Orthodox Christians into the "un-saved" category (which means they aren't going to heaven I guess). As long as all Christians are considered Christians, you are entitled to your opinion on the other religions. I don't agree that all of those people are doomed to Hell, but I'll leave it be.
Himantolophus was replying to JCSx2 above.

I've been following this conversation but backed out a while ago because the subject changed. In the above quote, Himantolophus and JCSx2 go on to mend their differences and agree that if you call yourself a "Christian," then you are a Christian.

In a sense, I agree. If you've been raised in a culturally-Christian environment, then you will know Christian values and understand Christian-speak. In this sense only, you are Christian..."culturally-christian" might be a way to identify it. However, this does not make you Born-again.

As a cultural-christian, you are on the same level as your Muslim-, your Hindu-, your Wiccan-, your __________________-neighbor. Being "saved" is something else entirely.

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Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Saved... An easy way out?

#30

Post by JCSx2 » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:57 pm

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Himantolophus wrote: but many born-again Christians include Catholics and Orthodox Christians into the "un-saved" category (which means they aren't going to heaven I guess). As long as all Christians are considered Christians, you are entitled to your opinion on the other religions. I don't agree that all of those people are doomed to Hell, but I'll leave it be.
Himantolophus was replying to JCSx2 above.

I've been following this conversation but backed out a while ago because the subject changed. In the above quote, Himantolophus and JCSx2 go on to mend their differences and agree that if you call yourself a "Christian," then you are a Christian.

In a sense, I agree. If you've been raised in a culturally-Christian environment, then you will know Christian values and understand Christian-speak. In this sense only, you are Christian..."culturally-christian" might be a way to identify it. However, this does not make you Born-again.

As a cultural-christian, you are on the same level as your Muslim-, your Hindu-, your Wiccan-, your __________________-neighbor. Being "saved" is something else entirely.

FL

I agree that there are many Christians out there who are not saved. Being saves is what gets you in to Heaven with our Father. Some Christians need saving and are at a great danger of not being saved due to they don't understand that by just giving money on Sunday, doing charity work on the odd weekend, donating canned goods to charities, etc.. This is works that will not save us. We will be judged by our works but not saved. ( I want to start another thread on this subject later)

Revelations 11-15

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


Just for simplicity I use the Term Christian as a term for those who are saved. You can call them born again or whatever. One thing that gets on my nerves is Christians who are saved disagree with one another on stuff that only pulls us apart as Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I say again we as Brothers and Sisters in Christ need to come together on our common beliefs.

I am once again a "new" Christian, I Gave myself to Christ on Easter of 07, the 20 years prior to that I was a pagan "wicca" and prior to that in my childhood I was Baptized, confirmed and raised in a Christian environment. (Lutheran).

I do not actually claim any particular denomination at the moment. I will probably settle in to one when I reach Colorado next month. I wont pick Lutheran just because I was raised Lutheran, I will pick a Christian Church that glorified Christ and I am comfortable with. (Pray that I find a good Church for myself and family)


I do enjoy this forum where people can calmly and rationally speak about Christ and assist each other on understanding his word. And not get attacked because you are a Christian.
Last edited by JCSx2 on Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Definition of a Veteran. A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including his life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

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