War

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madscientist
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Re: War

#16

Post by madscientist » Tue May 20, 2008 5:46 am

Gman wrote:Mad, they didn't just go and wipe out anyone they pleased.. They always offered peace first or gave many warnings before it got nasty.
Did they always? On some occasions we are told of them, but not always. And moreover if the decision depended on their king whose heart was hardened - why all people had to die? They could have tried to live in peace - sometimes they lived together; they had to be slaves for Israelies and then they were slain later or something maybe... :P
Gman wrote:There are corporate laws that are set to protect the innocent. That being said, we shouldn't take the law into our own hands. If we do we fall under judgment.
But isn't our life something different than the law? For example, there was an occasion when someone went too far... someone - a gypsy thief went to someone's house to steal his TV; the person heard him so shot him... now is this self defense? Yes; he wanted to steal a TV - but he could have gotten scared and killed the owner. Instead, the owner shot him. Was he justified? He could have waited... waited... and when the danger of his own life was too great he could have shot. Instead, he shot immediately. It's also true in such situations we are under stress and do stupid things... y:-? Also, would for example trying to kill Hitler - what did happen but failed - be considered murder or self defense? They knew killing him would be a way to stop the war... and also knew he personally may not have killed anyone...
Gman wrote: That is what Christ did for us... no? :ewink:
Yes that is... but isn't it also a big deed if we do it? I know once a priest was also talking about it - preaching... e.g. when a mother has a choice - lose her child or lose her life, if she decides to die but for her child it's a huge deed of love. Now there are some people here I guess who would risk their lives - only are not given the right circumstances. :ewink:
Gman wrote:I don't think anyone would be *lucky* in any war... I think war is frowned on by God or any country..

yes i know but you know what i meant... u cannot choose your side really. You can be lucky if you happen to survive e.g. 5 yrs of fighting without any injury. Or you can fight/do some military mission all right for half a yearand then die 50 km before you are home because your helicopter crashes (something that actually happened... :shakehead: ).
Gman wrote:Mad, I'm not sure what you are saying here.. Can you be more specific?
By that i meant that basically you should not consider whether you are evil or good according to the side you fight for. And that you hope to win regardless you are on the bad on good side. It would be wrong to judge all Germans as bad because they fought for a bad cause, and regard all others as good because they fought agains the "bad". You fight for what you have been predestined for... (or not?). Similarly today - you don't choose whether you are born Iraqi or American. it does not only apply to war, but also views, culture, religion etc. You fight for whom you are supposed to. And that soldiers should not be blamed for fighting "the good" people - they also fight for their lives. And a cause they cannot choose.
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Re: War

#17

Post by Northern Sky » Tue May 20, 2008 3:02 pm

I have no biblical basis for this, but I would think that soldiers killing soldiers in war are not murderers. It is somewhat like selfdefence, if you do not kill the enemy soldier, he will most likely kill you. Also soldiers join there armies well knowing what that entails. Killing civilians are most definitely murder.
hmm, I'll have too think about this some more and go read some bible...

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Re: War

#18

Post by Gman » Tue May 20, 2008 8:30 pm

madscientist wrote:Did they always? On some occasions we are told of them, but not always. And moreover if the decision depended on their king whose heart was hardened - why all people had to die? They could have tried to live in peace - sometimes they lived together; they had to be slaves for Israelis and then they were slain later or something maybe... :P


For the most part the Israelis were to make peace before they went into battle Deut. 20:10. I do not think that since their King had hardened his heart then all people had to die. My belief is that the total destruction of certain inhabitants in the area was due to the spread of the nephilim.
madscientist wrote:But isn't our life something different than the law? For example, there was an occasion when someone went too far... someone - a gypsy thief went to someone's house to steal his TV; the person heard him so shot him... now is this self defense? Yes; he wanted to steal a TV - but he could have gotten scared and killed the owner. Instead, the owner shot him. Was he justified? He could have waited... waited... and when the danger of his own life was too great he could have shot. Instead, he shot immediately. It's also true in such situations we are under stress and do stupid things... y:-? Also, would for example trying to kill Hitler - what did happen but failed - be considered murder or self defense? They knew killing him would be a way to stop the war... and also knew he personally may not have killed anyone...
Self defense is another thing, that is true.. That perhaps is justified in some cases. However, even if it was justified, you still fall under judgment. You still have to plead your case in a court of law. If they found you guilty, then that is what you get, jail or death depending on the situation. if innocent then you may get let go. It's a risk you have to take...
madscientist wrote:Yes that is... but isn't it also a big deed if we do it? I know once a priest was also talking about it - preaching... e.g. when a mother has a choice - lose her child or lose her life, if she decides to die but for her child it's a huge deed of love. Now there are some people here I guess who would risk their lives - only are not given the right circumstances. :ewink:
I agree... ;)
madscientist wrote:By that i meant that basically you should not consider whether you are evil or good according to the side you fight for. And that you hope to win regardless you are on the bad on good side. It would be wrong to judge all Germans as bad because they fought for a bad cause, and regard all others as good because they fought agains the "bad". You fight for what you have been predestined for... (or not?). Similarly today - you don't choose whether you are born Iraqi or American. it does not only apply to war, but also views, culture, religion etc. You fight for whom you are supposed to. And that soldiers should not be blamed for fighting "the good" people - they also fight for their lives. And a cause they cannot choose.
I again agree with you mad... No we shouldn't judge or fight against a certain race of people because of their heritage. But if an army of people, let's say an army from Greenland started shooting at another country, they just might shoot back. y#-o
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

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Re: War

#19

Post by madscientist » Sat May 24, 2008 7:31 am

Gman wrote: I do not think that since their King had hardened his heart then all people had to die. My belief is that the total destruction of certain inhabitants in the area was due to the spread of the nephilim.
interesting stuff! OK so - who were those nephilim? read about them. Now as christians and humans in 20th century should we believe in some "unnatural" beings of mythology? No wonder greek and roman mythology talks about gods having children with men!! :P if in the Bible it says (what should be reality and truth) then surely why mythology should be wrong on their origin of ideas?
Now how would that happen? And also - if it were their nature (genetic material?) or whatever to be like this it is not really their fault... is it? If they were born to be giants, evil, fearful, sons of god-human "parents"... and could they be judged for their acts if it was their nature to be so? Anyway it's unbelievable for us living in 20th century to think that such creatures were possible. Also - could that maybe be a reason why there are so many evil people today and many of whom look just bad and ugly and only do bad things? Also read a book where it talks about origin of life comning from space, and that the others tried to make life, but did not always succeed and hence produced such beasty creatures... anyway it's all absurd. But yeah why were such "people" then there? Could they even be called and referred to as people? Then we are not all descendants of Adam and Eve only, are we??? Were all of such people necessarily evil? If it was their nature then... should they be blamed for it?
Gman wrote: Self defense is another thing, that is true.. That perhaps is justified in some cases. However, even if it was justified, you still fall under judgment. You still have to plead your case in a court of law. If they found you guilty, then that is what you get, jail or death depending on the situation. if innocent then you may get let go. It's a risk you have to take...
Aha ok but if i am on the court etc - it is not really a sin to not self defend myself is it? I mean, first we are to do what Christ/God commands, not law. If the law is covered in flaws but God tells us so we should firstly listen to God...
Gman wrote: I again agree with you mad... No we shouldn't judge or fight against a certain race of people because of their heritage. But if an army of people, let's say an army from Greenland started shooting at another country, they just might shoot back. y#-o
But then those people - how possible they were all wicked? Their culture, result of environment they're living in?
Yes as in the example - if everyone in greenland starts shooting... then if you were one of them you would also shoot. Now you would be unlucky to be born as a greenlander and having to fight for such a country... but would you be held responsible? Similarly, if you lived in a wrecked city and covered in sin as the others did - you would probably have no choice but go with them and be just like them...
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Re: War

#20

Post by Gman » Sat May 24, 2008 9:43 am

madscientist wrote:interesting stuff! OK so - who were those nephilim? read about them. Now as christians and humans in 20th century should we believe in some "unnatural" beings of mythology? No wonder greek and roman mythology talks about gods having children with men!! :P if in the Bible it says (what should be reality and truth) then surely why mythology should be wrong on their origin of ideas?
True.. Certain angels (back in the OT times) were apparently dispatched to Earth simply to watch over the people (called "The Watchers"). They soon begin to lust for the human women.. The children produced by these relationships are called the Nephilim or the Emim, Rephaim and Anakim (human giants). This also explains where the giant Goliath came from.
madscientist wrote:Now how would that happen? And also - if it were their nature (genetic material?) or whatever to be like this it is not really their fault... is it?If they were born to be giants, evil, fearful, sons of god-human "parents"... and could they be judged for their acts if it was their nature to be so?


I'm not sure what you mean... If they start killing others then it is their fault. Apparently this race of hybrid people were only focused on the extermination of humans or killing off the line of Christ. In Genesis 6:13 God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

Further backed up in the Book of Jubilees: Chapter 5, verse 2.

2. "all of them corrupted their ways and their orders, and they began to devour each other."

And the Book of Enoch, Chapter 7, verse 4, 5.

4. The giants turned against them and devoured mankind.
5. And they began to sin against birds, and beast, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood.
madscientist wrote: Anyway it's unbelievable for us living in 20th century to think that such creatures were possible. Also - could that maybe be a reason why there are so many evil people today and many of whom look just bad and ugly and only do bad things? Also read a book where it talks about origin of life comning from space, and that the others tried to make life, but did not always succeed and hence produced such beasty creatures... anyway it's all absurd. But yeah why were such "people" then there? Could they even be called and referred to as people?
I don't believe they are around today and not everyone on this panel would agree with my statements (including the owner of this web site). This is mostly a theory, but then again there is a lot of evidence for it. As long as they don't kill then they won't fall under judgment. Again wars are started because of the sins of man. Bloodshed follows bloodshed.

Some say that the alien's that people encounter today could be the return of these angels again (as prophetically told by Christ in Matthew 24:37). Often some of these encounters are sexual in nature.

More on that here: http://www.alienresistance.org/ or http://www.alienresistance.org/christianufo.htm
And here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 43&start=0
madscientist wrote:Then we are not all descendants of Adam and Eve only, are we??? Were all of such people necessarily evil? If it was their nature then... should they be blamed for it?
These were genetically altered people who's soul purpose was bent on killing. Again what are we to do? Should we let them kill as they please?
madscientist wrote:Aha ok but if i am on the court etc - it is not really a sin to not self defend myself is it? I mean, first we are to do what Christ/God commands, not law. If the law is covered in flaws but God tells us so we should firstly listen to God...
Yes, I don't think it is a sin to defend myself.
madscientist wrote:But then those people - how possible they were all wicked? Their culture, result of environment they're living in?
Yes as in the example - if everyone in greenland starts shooting... then if you were one of them you would also shoot. Now you would be unlucky to be born as a greenlander and having to fight for such a country... but would you be held responsible? Similarly, if you lived in a wrecked city and covered in sin as the others did - you would probably have no choice but go with them and be just like them...
Ok, I see what you are saying... Just because you were born there doesn't mean that you are automatically bad. If you fight for a country that agreed to go to war with it's neighboring countries like what Hitler did, then yes, you are held responsible. But let's say you are German and you don't agree with Hitler and you don't agree with what your country is doing (by the way many Germans were against Hitler also) then they are innocent. And sometimes some of these innocent Germans fought against their own country... :P
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

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Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: War

#21

Post by B. W. » Sun May 25, 2008 6:47 am

Great answers Gman!

Regarding this statement concerning 'genetically altered people who's soul purpose was bent on killing,' you can add pedophilia, megalomania, and various forms of sadism too.

After years working in the field of criminal justice, there are certain people who have no known reason why they become the way they are. Some I would say are demon possessed, others must be genetically altered.

I had several SOMB (State Sex Offender Management Board) certified therapist make comments regarding exorcisms for several clients. They are studying the Catholic rite of exorcism. I wonder how these secular Dr. of Psychiatry came to this conclusions? I have too...

I am glad I have only a few clients in SOMB treatment. I prefer my normal Developmentally Disabled clients over the other spectrum criminal elements I have to deal with. There are some people that are just plain evil.

In my opinion, many types of evil people must be left over DNA from what the first few verses of Genesis 6 speaks about.
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Re: War

#22

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sun May 25, 2008 6:55 am

B. W. wrote:Great answers Gman!

Regarding this statement concerning 'genetically altered people who's soul purpose was bent on killing,' you can add pedophilia, megalomania, and various forms of sadism too.

After years working in the field of criminal justice, there are certain people who have no known reason why they become the way they are. Some I would say are demon possessed, others must be genetically altered.

I had several SOMB (State Sex Offender Management Board) certified therapist make comments regarding exorcisms for several clients. They are studying the Catholic rite of exorcism. I wonder how these secular Dr. of Psychiatry came to this conclusions? I have too...

I am glad I have only a few clients in SOMB treatment. I prefer my normal Developmentally Disabled clients over the other spectrum criminal elements I have to deal with. There are some people that are just plain evil.

In my opinion, many types of evil people must be left over DNA from what the first few verses of Genesis 6 speaks about.
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I think environment and heredity can hold a clue as to why some people are more inclined toward certain types of deviant behavior than other people.

At the end of the day however, there's more to it than just physical factors and therefore I don't believe science is fully equipped to answer this question. There are spiritual issues that can't be measured or proven on solely scientific means and I think the questions of evil and why people commit evil acts is one of these issues.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: War

#23

Post by Gman » Sun May 25, 2008 9:27 am

B. W. wrote:Great answers Gman!

Regarding this statement concerning 'genetically altered people who's soul purpose was bent on killing,' you can add pedophilia, megalomania, and various forms of sadism too.

After years working in the field of criminal justice, there are certain people who have no known reason why they become the way they are. Some I would say are demon possessed, others must be genetically altered.
Perhaps, but I would doubt it too.. Apparently from scripture they weren't that subtle about it. They would defy anything that seemed humanly possible like throwing a spear head over 23 pounds or able to wear 194 pounds of armor.
B. W. wrote:I am glad I have only a few clients in SOMB treatment. I prefer my normal Developmentally Disabled clients over the other spectrum criminal elements I have to deal with. There are some people that are just plain evil.

In my opinion, many types of evil people must be left over DNA from what the first few verses of Genesis 6 speaks about.
Spiritual aspects are always hard to weed out in our physical world. There are always possibilities of the demonic but in this case too I would find it hard to assume that this is happening now as it has been over thousands of years. It would probably be a bigger splash than what we see today...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: War

#24

Post by Gman » Sun May 25, 2008 9:35 am

But then again, we do have these nut jobs don't we? :mrgreen:

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Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: War

#25

Post by Swamper » Sun May 25, 2008 9:44 am

Gman wrote:But then again, we do have these nut jobs don't we? :mrgreen:

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But pro wrestling is fake... ;)
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Re: War

#26

Post by Gman » Sun May 25, 2008 3:05 pm

Swamper wrote:But pro wrestling is fake... ;)
Don't let the secret out... K? :ewink:
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: War

#27

Post by madscientist » Mon May 26, 2008 1:45 pm

Hmm... strange - so why were those angels there then? We don't see that today do we? And yes good point with the DNA. It looks like today there are soo many people with "altered" DNA. I would say this is due to mutations. Then there is another thing I maybe would post on a thread - why is there so much variation among people? We are all from 2 descendants, Adam and Eve. Now if we only breed (interbreed at first) and then breed and so on, we should not give rise to new genes. Then why are the people of every nation/country so distinct? i started to notice this quite a lot lately... some people from the same area or country are so similar it's scary! Not in how they look but also their behavior, how they are in general etc.

Then if this "altered" DNA arose somehow - e.g. murderers, pedophilia, homosexuality etc - why does it happen? And can we held them responsible? If one is to believe nephilim were real then yes, we could say some of this DNA has been coserved... may sound absurd.
But an example: let's say someone we know is a very evil, bad, nasty, ugly, sadistic, stupid, unpleasant person. We wonder why, hate him, etc. But then we look at his parents and don't think they would look any different. Then we trace it back... only to find this had been going on for generations. I know examples when I don't like someone; then see their parents or siblings and can already say NONE of them are my type... also, some people are just soo nice and pleasant and the opposite and we tend to thank them and kind of praise them for being so - but then is it their choice to be nice pretty sweet attractive? Don't think so either! :P genetics. Some people when we just look into their face we can say a lot about them. WHy? We can say by a look whether they are rather nice or rather nasty evil... By logic, if how someone looks in a physical way is genetically determined, and physical look reflects how someone is inside, then we can say that how someone is in the inside is also due to genetics... Now i find it quite unfair that many people are "bad" just because of their genetics. Not ugly or so per se, but actually how they are entirely.

Now if we have a genetic predisposition to be nice, are we expected to be more nice? Also, if one has a predisposition to be a criminal, then surely he is more tempted to do those things... so if a person predisposed to be a nice person and a criminal person both do the same act, should they be judged the same?
Just consider dogs... you can look at a dog and work out if he is rather calm or agressive. Bulldogs, pitbulls... they were bred - or just are so because of genetics! Other dogs are born to be intelligent, others to be sly, others to be nice and obedient, and some to be agressive. If a pitbull bites you - can you blame it? It does not have free will, but we sort of tend to blame the dog that bites us! Now if this can happen to dogs, why cannot the same apply to humans? So going back to nephilim - yes they should have been eradicated if they were like pitbulls, but then again if we consider they had free will and were humans - it is not their fault they were "born for killing". Had they had different DNA they would have been different. Now if DNA determines if one ends up in hell... not very fair I'd say but I have discussed that somewhere else... :P I think we just are who we are "born to be" and that's pretty much it... :roll:
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Re: War

#28

Post by bizzt » Thu May 29, 2008 8:54 am

Gman wrote: I again agree with you mad... No we shouldn't judge or fight against a certain race of people because of their heritage. But if an army of people, let's say an army from Greenland started shooting at another country, they just might shoot back. y#-o
Polar Bears have Armies NICE :mrgreen:

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Re: War

#29

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu May 29, 2008 8:55 pm

Polar Bears have Armies NICE :mrgreen:[/quote]

It's a basic American Value! Even the Second Ammendment preserves that there shall be no infringment on our right to ARM BEARS!!!!!!

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Re: War

#30

Post by Kurieuo » Fri May 30, 2008 4:43 am

Gman wrote:
Swamper wrote:But pro wrestling is fake... ;)
Don't let the secret out... K? :ewink:
I won't. Don't even know what the secret is to let it out. I'm just puzzled as to why you directed this at me specifically? :econfused:

:ewink:

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