War

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Pan
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War

#1

Post by Pan » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:40 pm

Is war considered murder? I see how abortion is murder but you premeditate going to war and killing people, but I haven't seen anything specific that condones war.

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Re: War

#2

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:48 pm

Pan wrote:Is war considered murder? I see how abortion is murder but you premeditate going to war and killing people, but I haven't seen anything specific that condones war.
You meaning is killing in war considered murder? Depends on the situation. There are just causes and unjust. Just because something has "war" stamped on it does not make it right and just.

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Re: War

#3

Post by johnt » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:36 pm

I believe it would come under both stealing and murder. When anothers life is taken you are in effect taking something that doesn't belong to you. So you are both stealing and commiting the act of murder. This brings up self defense. If you are attacked and someone intends to do serious harm or to take your life you must defend yourself ( to protect the gift) even if you have to take the attackers life when there is no other alternative. It boils down to ones life essence was a gift from G-d and to destroy it even in suicide is not for one another to determine when that person should lose their life.

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Re: War

#4

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:00 pm

Pan wrote:Is war considered murder? I see how abortion is murder but you premeditate going to war and killing people, but I haven't seen anything specific that condones war.
All murder is killing but not all killing is murder.

War is a case where killing can be justified but as pointed out, it is contingent upon the cause of the war, and the context of the person doing the killing to the state sanctioning or prosecuting the war.
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Re: War

#5

Post by Pan » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:59 pm

Ok, the Bible says murder is premeditated so wouldn't killing in all war be premeditated and therefore murder?

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Re: War

#6

Post by Canuckster1127 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:38 pm

Pan wrote:Ok, the Bible says murder is premeditated so wouldn't killing in all war be premeditated and therefore murder?
No.

First I'm not aware of any place in the Bible where murder is distinguished from killing by the fact that it is premeditated, so you'll need to give me a reference.

Second, capital punishment properly carried out by the state is premeditated and yet not murder so that distinction fails on that count.

Murder can be carried out in the context of war though. King David's assignment of Uriah to the front lines in order for him to be killed so he could marry Bathsheba was murder.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: War

#7

Post by B. W. » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 says it best:

1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 a time to tear, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace
.


Now the Problem for us is — discerning what time it is… :knitting:
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Re: War

#8

Post by JCSx2 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:47 am

B. W. wrote:Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 says it best:

1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 a time to tear, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace
.


Now the Problem for us is — discerning what time it is… :knitting:
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It is time for pizza..
Definition of a Veteran. A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including his life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

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Re: War

#9

Post by Gman » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:31 pm

Pan wrote:Is war considered murder? I see how abortion is murder but you premeditate going to war and killing people, but I haven't seen anything specific that condones war.
War, I believe, is the result of man's sins... Not that God wants war..

My beliefs about war in the Bible is that God is very much "ANTI" war... I have heard many people claim that God is simply a warmonger picking fights with those that oppose him. Unfortunately nothing could be further for the truth... Only under extreme conditions was a war ever sanctioned and not after many warnings... War is very much frowned on by the God of the Bible, Lamentations 3:33. In fact even the mighty King David himself was not allowed to build a temple for God because he was a warrior and had shed blood in wars, 1 Chronicles 28:3. And of course, some day in the future, God will not allow any more wars, Isaiah 2:4.

This anti war example was fused into Christ who did not defend himself when questioned by his persecutors, instead he faced them head on, with no weapons, and was turned into a bloody mess...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: War

#10

Post by johnt » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:55 am

Gman, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm afraid though it will be sometime before making war with another will cease. I've commented on it before and until certain countries stop making and selling weapons to other countries for profit it's like a dog chasing it's tail. Don't be surprised when you visit these links.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0901-08.htm

http://www.worldmission.ph/JANUARY06/Weapons.htm

http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/ ... g00719.htm

There are many more reports out there that show how big arms sales are. I guess they just figure it's another way to make a buck. Maybe these folks that make, sell and buy this stuff should spend sometime in a hospital ward, on morgue duty or in a town where there wares are used for a change. That just might open there eyes.

Natural resources also has been the ulterior motive for the past hundred years more than ever. Yes you have guessed it OIL. Pretty much from WWII on. Southeast Asia was a big coverup but the cat is out of the bag with the U.S. and Vietnam opening trade agreements. Guess what Oil again offshore Vietnam! How dumb do they think the general public really is??? At least they finally admitted it in the Iraq nightmare a year ago. They wouldn't have until it leaked out so instead of the continueing cover-up they just admitted to it and we are still there and will be for sometime.

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Re: War

#11

Post by Gman » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:45 pm

johnt wrote:Gman, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm afraid though it will be sometime before making war with another will cease. I've commented on it before and until certain countries stop making and selling weapons to other countries for profit it's like a dog chasing it's tail. Don't be surprised when you visit these links.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0901-08.htm

http://www.worldmission.ph/JANUARY06/Weapons.htm

http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/ ... g00719.htm

There are many more reports out there that show how big arms sales are. I guess they just figure it's another way to make a buck. Maybe these folks that make, sell and buy this stuff should spend sometime in a hospital ward, on morgue duty or in a town where there wares are used for a change. That just might open there eyes.

Natural resources also has been the ulterior motive for the past hundred years more than ever. Yes you have guessed it OIL. Pretty much from WWII on. Southeast Asia was a big coverup but the cat is out of the bag with the U.S. and Vietnam opening trade agreements. Guess what Oil again offshore Vietnam! How dumb do they think the general public really is??? At least they finally admitted it in the Iraq nightmare a year ago. They wouldn't have until it leaked out so instead of the continueing cover-up they just admitted to it and we are still there and will be for sometime.
No argument here... I think it all boils down to is sin, the love of money, or in this case oil.. It is rather frightening to see us stock piling so many weapons. We still can't seem to shake the notion that war ultimately means revenue... The problem here is what do you do with all this stuff? Sell it I guess... To your enemies. That's it, we will sell it to our enemies, then pick a fight with them so that we will generate even more revenue. :roll: So what if we lose a few people in the process? After all it doesn't affect me...

This reminds me of the psalms where God says he will scatter those who delight in war... Maybe that is where we are heading towards...

Psalm 68:30: Rebuke the wild beasts dwelling among the reeds [in Egypt], the herd of bulls (the leaders) with the calves of the peoples; trample underfoot those who lust for tribute money; scatter the people who delight in war.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: War

#12

Post by johnt » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:08 am

If I told you that we spend 7 billion a week or 364 billion a year on imported oil in this country would that shock you? In 1973 when we had the first national shortage I was actually working at a service station in Rye Neck N.Y.. At the time our country was importing right at 36%. That was not good news back then and of course many years later after lots of speeches and promises to become energy independent in the year 2007 we did a great job and only imported 61%. Haliburton left Houston this past year and moved their headquarters to Dubai. They do maintain an office in Houston still as window dressing but the top brass has vacated to greener pastures. This is traject. To offset some of this cost we have to sell both weapons and weapon technology. Both Iran and Iraq at one time were allies and yes we developed there energy complexes as we have done with Saudi Arabia and the others in that part of the world to include Nigeria. Venezuela and Mexico and other countries just south of us. It's a vicious circle that is out of control and is causing lots of turmoil which will get worse as time passes. Without oil this country I'm afraid will come to a grinding halt. Then what??? Yes we are running out and it is going to happen quicker then the forecasts. Nuclear power is not the true answer either. The Southeastern U.S. is in a severe drought and some of those power plants are going to have to be shut down because there isn't enough water available to cool them. These are some of the things that cause flare ups in people. When that happens fights break out and you all know the rest.

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Re: War

#13

Post by Gman » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:59 pm

I thought I would add more scripture about war... These verses show how Christians deal differently with war than the world does.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5

For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.


Ecclesiastes 9:18

Wisdom is better than weapons of war, but one sinner destroys much good.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: War

#14

Post by madscientist » Mon May 19, 2008 1:54 pm

Were all wars evil? Well God commanded Israelites to fight all the nations who stood in their way to their promised land - they had to go and slay them, curse them all one and all. :roll: Then - is God totally against war?

As for self defense someone mentioned earlier - is it actually necessary to self defend ourselves? DO we have to kill the other if he threatens to kill us? Cannot we just say we "sacrifice our lives" and not fight back? I don't think we are obliged to fight back. It says something about turning the other cheek and stuff. I think we are also allowed to kill if needed or save the just, but as far as our lives go - we can risk our life to save someone else. Or suppose someone was shooting at someone... we want to save them... we run go there risk our lives may save them may not - RISK! What is the greatest good deed? Give a life for someone else. Would not then also not killing my killer but rather let him live be such of an act? Then also letting ourselves be shot at to save the one behind us would be considered such an act... or e.g. giving our oxygen mask to someone knowing only 1 of us can make it... y#-o :P

As for war - the most absurd thing I would say is the fact you dont fight for yourself but for a country. Let's imagine it's WW2. If you are French, you are good. If German, bad. Now the fact that you are *lucky* to be French - on the "good" side does that mean it's all right to kill Germans? On the contrary, of you are a German, KNOWING you are the "evil" one - should you not kill the French just because you know you are not the good one? That's absurd... so basically whether you bad or good, you just hope you win. Was it right for English to go and bombard cities such as Dresden? Absolutely yes/no, same as for Germans shooting the French, for example. Civilians killed. Others killed. If I were a German and enemy was there yes I would shoot!! Even if I am the evil one...

War simply does not make sense from a soldier point of view. The fact that someone says "here is our border, you are French you are German" does not make any sense. We are humans after all. Does race have a meaning? Who knows. God divided people (incl Israelites) according to their ancestors; also, we see other people - nations. So yes, it looks like it does make a difference who we are. And nations are also different etc.

If attacked what to do? Try peace - if not... can be justified? Maybe, but who is to blame? Not the soldiers at least... y=;
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Re: War

#15

Post by Gman » Mon May 19, 2008 6:12 pm

madscientist wrote:Were all wars evil? Well God commanded Israelites to fight all the nations who stood in their way to their promised land - they had to go and slay them, curse them all one and all. :roll: Then - is God totally against war?
Mad, they didn't just go and wipe out anyone they pleased.. They always offered peace first or gave many warnings before it got nasty.

I believe God is against war even though he allows war under certain circumstances. We have police officers today that carry guns don't we? Should we say that anyone who wishes to protect the innocent by law shouldn't be allowed to carry weapons? Is it evil for them to use guns against lawbreakers? And in some circumstances people get killed be these guns...
madscientist wrote:As for self defense someone mentioned earlier - is it actually necessary to self defend ourselves? DO we have to kill the other if he threatens to kill us? Cannot we just say we "sacrifice our lives" and not fight back? I don't think we are obliged to fight back. It says something about turning the other cheek and stuff.
There are corporate laws that are set to protect the innocent. That being said, we shouldn't take the law into our own hands. If we do we fall under judgment.
madscientist wrote:we can risk our life to save someone else. Or suppose someone was shooting at someone... we want to save them... we run go there risk our lives may save them may not - RISK! What is the greatest good deed? Give a life for someone else.
That is what Christ did for us... no? :ewink:
madscientist wrote:As for war - the most absurd thing I would say is the fact you dont fight for yourself but for a country. Let's imagine it's WW2. If you are French, you are good. If German, bad. Now the fact that you are *lucky* to be French - on the "good" side does that mean it's all right to kill Germans?
I don't think anyone would be *lucky* in any war... I think war is frowned on by God or any country..
madscientist wrote:On the contrary, of you are a German, KNOWING you are the "evil" one - should you not kill the French just because you know you are not the good one? That's absurd... so basically whether you bad or good, you just hope you win. Was it right for English to go and bombard cities such as Dresden? Absolutely yes/no, same as for Germans shooting the French, for example. Civilians killed. Others killed. If I were a German and enemy was there yes I would shoot!! Even if I am the evil one...

War simply does not make sense from a soldier point of view. The fact that someone says "here is our border, you are French you are German" does not make any sense. We are humans after all. Does race have a meaning? Who knows. God divided people (incl Israelites) according to their ancestors; also, we see other people - nations. So yes, it looks like it does make a difference who we are. And nations are also different etc.

If attacked what to do? Try peace - if not... can be justified? Maybe, but who is to blame? Not the soldiers at least... y=;
Mad, I'm not sure what you are saying here.. Can you be more specific?

Thanks.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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