The Fall of Man

[zoegirl]

While I have never had a major metaphysical event, I do have a very deep sense that my prayers are heard and that while God may not directly intervene in my physical life, he does provide a spiritual sense that I would be lost without.

I simply can not accept a simplistic non-intellectual acceptance of the flaws I see in the Bible due to various reason I have noted.

First, I worry that you feel that God does not interact with you in your life. Christianity is a relationship with Christ, we are a new creation, and Christ works in us and works in our daily lives. What is this spritial sense? A general sense of calm? A peace? DO you have a personal relationship with Christ?

Secondly , IN your devotions and bible reading, what scripture do you decide is valid for teaching you and helping you grow spritually? Only those you like?

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

How do you reconcile this verse....do you simply throw it out?

You claim John is valid enough for the salvation message (JOhn 3:16) and yet throw out "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6). SO which is it....Is John valid or isn't he? You base your salvation on a book you deem to be untrustworthy? Or is it simply those parts you don't like?

Finally, I take exception to your description of "simplistic, non-intellectual" acceptance of what *you* deem to be flaws. If you take some time to read through some of the Biblical scholars out there, you will first find that they have not simply accepted the word of God without serious study, deep intellectual thinking and processing. These biblical scholars (incidentally, do you only consider those that agree that the Bible contains flaws "Scholarly" and intellectual? What bias!! What a terrible generalization and insult to all those who pour over the Bible and examine it) So anybody who reads the Bible and doesn't immediatley through out anything we don't like is simplistic and non-intellectual?

[Otisblues]

I do not mean to imply that one is not intellectual who accept the Bible as a flawless. I simply do not understand how they can do this after reviewing the history of the Bible. I will readily admit that I do not know what to accept or not accept. Therefore, I do not simply throw out things I don't like but I can not agree to things that do make no sense or appear extreme injust for me such as some of the points I have made.

I feel God does work in my life through Jesus Christ in a spiritual manner and this does effect my physical life and my attitudes toward others for example. However, I have not experienced any Mircales that I can describe as supernatural events.

BTW, you did not answer my question.

More later/

[zoegirl]

Let me ask a question. Do you believe that all of the pre-European Americians (Atecs, Mayan, Native Amercians, etc) were doomed?

Sorry, didn't see this....

I don't disagree that God must reconcile His judgement with those that have not heard explicitly. I do not know HOW this will happen. I do not, however, believe that there is another way for salvation. This is too easy a response. Acknowledging Christ as one's savior means confessing that one is a sinner and is in need of a savior. ( The Bible as a whole develops Christs redmeptive plan....The Bible also is very clear that God judgement is just.

For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice; upright men will see his face.
Psalm 11:6-7

Psalm 33:5
The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.


Psalm 36:6
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep. O LORD, you preserve both man and beast.


Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [a] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

We know that Abraham believed God's provision of a redeemer and was thus credited with righteousness. We also know in Romans that

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

What I do not hold to, however, is that other religions provide a way to salvation.


Also, please address the contradiction in your using John 3:16 as a valid support for a salvation plan (it's a traustworthy book here) and then use the excuse that JOhn is not a trustworthy book

You claim John is valid enough for the salvation message (JOhn 3:16) and yet throw out "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6). SO which is it....Is John valid or isn't he? You base your salvation on a book you deem to be untrustworthy? Or is it simply those parts you don't like?

[Otisblues]

So you are saying if Hindu person happened to hear a foreign missionary demeaning another Hindu saying he is maybe a subhuman animal but then mentioning Jesus and telling him the story, then since this person has heard about Jesus even though by an insincere bigot, he is doomed? This person now has been exposed to the message of Jesus but in a very negative manner.

Also, does not God take into account the reason someone may not be Christian such as he cultural brainwashing as we all are?

[zoegirl]

So you are saying if Hindu person happened to hear a foreign missionary demeaning another Hindu saying he is maybe a subhuman animal but then mentioning Jesus and telling him the story, then since this person has heard about Jesus even though by an insincere bigot, he is doomed? This person now has been exposed to the message of Jesus but in a very negative manner.

Also, does not God take into account the reason someone may not be Christian such as he cultural brainwashing as we all are?

Again, we come again to the idea that we are not really guilty and God should not condemn us....it's just our brainwashing...

(BTW...why bother becoming a missionary to those this person regards as subhuman? rather a bizarre example)


It would be extremely horrible and that missionary would be facing a tragic judgement day. Would this be a barrier for God? Can we look at Paul for a second and examine how resistant he was to CHristianity? To Paul, the message was horrible, an atatck on all of his Jewish teachings.....and in a moment, Christ had blown away every wall to Paul's heart.

Here's another question (but still am waiting for your justification in accepting JOhn with regards to salvation and yet rejecting John with regards to only Christ you want to have it both ways with regards to the gospel of John....If it is so sketchy a gospel, you should not use John 3:16 for your salvation message)

Why do you give the Word and God so little power and credit that this would somehow be a barrier to this HIndu's heart?

If Christ could open Paul's heart to Him, then certainly a pitiful and pathetic little missionary is no wall.

Of course this just points out the huge responsibility we all have in living a life according to CHrist (of course, this begs the question, yet again, of how you sift through all of the verses that you accept and reject in order to live like Christ). We must all be held accountable (but wait, can we even be held accountable?.....what about the brainwashing that missionary had from his parents about that Hindu?....can God hold that horrid missionary responsible for defaming the gospel of Christ?!?)

See how this spirals out of control? We are all a product of our genes, our upbringing, and our influences....Can that Hindu be held responsible? According to Romans, according to genesis, according to numerous verses....yes.....can that missionary be held accountable.....you betcha....in fact

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Matthew 18:6

(oh, but wait, that's rather harsh... ) We carry a burden to represent and be ambassadors for Christ....and yes we will be held responsible....

Please tell me why you get to pick and choose what verses you feel are trustworthy from the Gospel of John....If JOhn 3:16 is valid enough to use as a salvation message, why isnt John 14:6??

[Otisblues]

You seem to be saying that God will open their hearts but obvious many Hindus who have heard of Christ have no interest whatever is changing from the religion of their culture, parents, and childhood just as most Christians have no interest in changing to becoming a Hindu. I am simply saying I believe God understands this and will adjust to it.

As far as my example being ridiculous example how do you think the Spanish invaders felt about the Aztecs or Mayans? What do you think of early missionaries going to Africa and preaching to savage natives? I have on numerous occasions been approached by a fanatical Christian who I could see as I disagreed with him or her, he felt I was subhuman.

Your statement that God will take care of it would have to mean if there only one method of salvation these individuals have no chance of salvation then they are doomed. If they are not doom, and God would have to given them another means.


I do not totally dismiss John or any of the other Bible chapters. I simply state that when you look at the history of the Bible and the inconsistencies in the Bible there are problems. I just don't see how you could dismiss these problems.

As far as John 3-16 I used it as an example. I believe that anyone with a sincere heart who searches for God will find him whether he is a fundamentalist, a Universal Unitarian, or a Buddhist. I believe any sincere person in just about any religion will find some aspect of God, and God will acknowledge this. Whether there is a different heaven for them I don't know. Of course, I have no real idea of what happens when a person dies. I really would not care for an eternity sitting around playing a harp. For me that would be hell.

[zoegirl]

You seem to be saying that God will open their hearts but obvious many Hindus who have heard of Christ have no interest whatever is changing from the religion of their culture, parents, and childhood just as most Christians have no interest in changing to becoming a Hindu. I am simply saying I believe God understands this and will adjust to it.

As far as my example being ridiculous example how do you think the Spanish invaders felt about the Aztecs or Mayans? What do you think of early missionaries going to Africa and preaching to savage natives? I have on numerous occasions been approached by a fanatical Christian who I could see as I disagreed with him or her, he felt I was subhuman.

Your statement that God will take care of it would have to mean if there only one method of salvation these individuals have no chance of salvation then they are doomed. If they are not doom, and God would have to given them another means.


I do not totally dismiss John or any of the other Bible chapters. I simply state that when you look at the history of the Bible and the inconsistencies in the Bible there are problems. I just don't see how you could dismiss these problems.

As far as John 3-16 I used it as an example. I believe that anyone with a sincere heart who searches for God will find him whether he is a fundamentalist, a Universal Unitarian, or a Buddhist. I believe any sincere person in just about any religion will find some aspect of God, and God will acknowledge this. Whether there is a different heaven for them I don't know. Of course, I have no real idea of what happens when a person dies. I really would not care for an eternity sitting around playing a harp. For me that would be hell.

But you do easily dismiss the versus of John that you do not like...see, this is not a problem of validity or age (this is one gospel here) but rather the fact that you like JOhn 3:16 but do not like John 14:6.....If something as important as the salvation message can be used from John then the entirety of John should be available. But you dismiss it out of hand because you thinkg God is too harsh, completely ignoring the fact that it is the justice that shows the amazing gift that satisfies this justice. And then you nonchalantly dismiss JOhn 3:16...oh well, that was only an example....

Just out of curiosity.....what verses/books DO you view as trustworthy? Give me examples of 5 verses that you would use if you were witnessing to somebody....How would you convinve someone needed Christ as a savior without pointing out to them that they needed a savior....that they needed to be made acceptable to God? (ooh, that's harsh, you mean we're not?)


Just because not all those who are preached to come to Christ does not invalidate the preaching. (I am Not here validating that example you provided of the horrid missionary) I am simply saying that people reject Christ for a number of reasons. This does not invalidate the preaching of the word.....and yes, those that reject Christ after hearing about HIm will be under judgement. For those that have heard about Christ and continued to walk without Him, they will be held accountable....

I know God will take care of it because I know that God is just and also that God has provided Christ for salvation. I do not know HOW he will. But the God in the Bible is perfectly just and perfectly loving.

Interesting that you did not address any o the scriptire passages I provided.....Do you reject the passage in Romans? Psalms?

You say that God provided other means of salvation.....To use your logic, would God not have provided this in His scriptture? If He indeed means for multiple pathways to Him, why not include that in His word so that there would be peace and tolerance? "I am one of the ways, truths, and lights...."

Also, did not address whether the horrid missionary would be held accountable? Should his brainwashing be condemned? Let's hold everybody accountable to the same degree here. If he was brainwashed by his parents.....If those Spaniards were just following their cultural dictates....If we were just following our brainwashing during the Slave trading times.....ah, I guess we should not be held accountable for our actions...All those evil slave owners....brainwashed......Ah, but that's right, those extenuating circumstances again....let's let out all those rapists and murderers because, after all, they were just a product of their nature and nuture. Again, give me an example of an action or thought that IS worthy of condemnation....

[Otisblues]

I plead ignorance on which verses in the Bible are completely valid and which are not. I believe the overall message of Jesus because it is consitent across the Gospels even though specific passages made not have been actually said by him. Also, it works for me.

As for a "witnessing" I probably would not do it as you suggest. I would be happy to discuss my belief system with someone if they wanted. However, I would in no away attempt to force my belief system on anyone and I would not tell anyone their belief system was wrong excluding some extremes such as the rapist.

The Gospels were written by people in a small area of the world who likely had no knowledge whatsoever of say the Eastern Religions. They did not know the Americas existed. They thought the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it. So how could they have said anything about things of which they had no knowledge. Each Gospel was written by a human being with his own perspective addressed to his pariticular group of people.


To use your logic, would God not have provided this in His scriptture? If He indeed means for multiple pathways to Him, why not include that in His word so that there would be peace and tolerance? "I am one of the ways, truths, and lights...

I would agree that I wish the scriptures were more complete. I wish that there was a book of Jesus written by Jesus that would have survived the years. Yes, if God had done this and it could be demonstrated by separate historical soruces we would not be having this debate. That certainly would have simplied things. And Yes, God could have added some verses about the Native Americians and Aztecs of whom no person in the Old World would have any knowledge. This would have been impressive indeed. Also, while I am wishing Jesus could have spoken English so no interpretation was needed.

I'm have not said and not saying people should not be held accountable for their actions. I am simply saying that even in our imperfect court system, the difference between Murder 1 and Manslaughter is one of intent. You seem to be saying with God it is either or. There can only be one answer to your God's judgement and thus, one reward or punishment, nothing in between.

I think we are now reaching an impass where we have to simply agree to disagree. We now seem to be repeating ourselves. In my religious beliefs I admit I focus on the positive aspects of Jesus' message and the similarities between his message and most other religions. Your argument that I neglect some scriptures over others is a valid one. And I will take full responsibility for this. However, I feel my contention about the history of the Bible is also valid. In his book, Ehrman, points out many verses that when compared to old manuscripts indicates additions or substractions, but I am not well learned enough nor have the time to fully research each and every verse.

I would also argued this why there are so many Christians denominations. It depends on what individuals have deemed important in the Bible. I know some people who attend the Church of Christ who say they are the only church of Christ. They also say if you have musical instruments in your Church you are sinning against God. I know some Penticostal individuals who believe unless you have had a manifestation of the Holy Spirit by speeching on tongue you do not know Christ. While I totally respect their viewpoints, I disagree. They could be correct but it seems to me in each case they are limiting God's love and understanding of the human situation. Of course, I also believe that this translates to other culture and other religion of which I realize you totally disagree and I respect your belief.

[Otisblues]

Yes, I can get long winded.

I have come to believe from my experiences that there are many unconscious influences in our lives. Do not mistake me, I believe we are responsible for our actions but I am simple saying there are many unconscious factors that make us who we are. I have seen in my counseling experience many people in pain who wanted to change but could not manage to escape from their past such as in child abuse cases. I do not believe the statement "God will not give us more than we can handle." I have seen many people who had practically no chance in having a happy life. With some of the people I counseled I was simply amazed that they were still living. I have seen people changed and move forward but even then there were always the scares left by their past. Obviously, I would not have been a Counselor if I did not think people could change.

I simply say this to say I believe that God, the great Counselor, will take all these factors into consideration when looking at a specific individual. It seems many attempt to simply the human condition. We are sinner thus we die. Yes, I believe we are all sinner (see previous statements) but I also believe that God is a Just God and will take all these things into consideration.

And yes this point has a great influence on how I choose to interpret the scriptures. I attempt to be as conscious as I can of what I choose to believe and sometimes while I am not able to give a logical reason for my choice, I always attempt to do so.

It seems this is a basic point on which we disagree but that is what makes a debate enjoyable. I respect your opinion as I hope you respect mine.

[bizzt]

I plead ignorance on which verses in the Bible are completely valid and which are not. I believe the overall message of Jesus because it is consitent across the Gospels even though specific passages made not have been actually said by him. Also, it works for me.

As for a "witnessing" I probably would not do it as you suggest. I would be happy to discuss my belief system with someone if they wanted. However, I would in no away attempt to force my belief system on anyone and I would not tell anyone their belief system was wrong excluding some extremes such as the rapist.

How is talking about beliefs Forcing a person? I have conversations all the time with people. It is a cool topic and develops great Conversation. You don't have to say to a person that they will go to hell if they do not believe. God is the one that is going to do the work not I.

The Gospels were written by people in a small area of the world who likely had no knowledge whatsoever of say the Eastern Religions. They did not know the Americas existed. They thought the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it. So how could they have said anything about things of which they had no knowledge. Each Gospel was written by a human being with his own perspective addressed to his pariticular group of people.

Two things here! First could you backup your claim that they believed the Earth was flat and the sun revolved around it? Also how would you know they had no knowledge of Eastern Religions? There were MANY religions they were aware of actually. If we look back in the History of the Bible say around 1000 BC you will notice the Countless "religions" within the Region. Do we know that these religions were not the same as the "Eastern Religions"?

To use your logic, would God not have provided this in His scriptture? If He indeed means for multiple pathways to Him, why not include that in His word so that there would be peace and tolerance? "I am one of the ways, truths, and lights...

I would agree that I wish the scriptures were more complete. I wish that there was a book of Jesus written by Jesus that would have survived the years. Yes, if God had done this and it could be demonstrated by separate historical soruces we would not be having this debate. That certainly would have simplied things. And Yes, God could have added some verses about the Native Americians and Aztecs of whom no person in the Old World would have any knowledge. This would have been impressive indeed. Also, while I am wishing Jesus could have spoken English so no interpretation was needed.

Ooiii Why would that be needed. Then there would be a Debate about whether Jesus actually did write the Book. If you think about it every single thing God Did was always questioned. Look at the Israelites in Egypt! Water to blood, Frogs, Locusts, Fireballs from Heaven. Yet the people still murmured and disbelieved. EVEN after the Red Sea parting. The Pharisees seen Miracle after Miracle performed by Jesus yet did not believe. Of course those things written in the Bible would have been Great but do you think that would have changed anybodys thought on the Bible in years to come NO

[Otisblues]

I'm just saying it would be nice if Jesus had written the New Testament and several Roman and Greek officicals at the time documented it. Also, I did not see any of events which you described. It seems God only did miracles in that particular time and unless you believe the Virgin Mary appears to peasant girls.

[zoegirl]

I will be chaperoning a great bunch of students to a leadership conference this weekend and will be away from internet (ouch, how will I survive!! )

I am not ignoring or disappearing from the conversation, but simply won't have access.

I do agree that we have a good idea of each other's argument.. I will only say this more. It is far too easy to simply dismiss verses simply because at first glance they seem to present a God that does not mesh with our idea of God. To simply throw one's hand up and say I don't know is also, to me, giving up too easily.

To also use the argument that one wishes that Christ wrote a book also seems weak, considering that the entire Bible is the words of God. Unfortunately, to see scripture as susceptible to mans' bias and weakness obliterates any validity in any scripture. I agree with Bizzt that there would be a question of the authorship of any book supposedly written by Christ.

Have fun in the meantime.

[gogobuffalo]

Ok I've skipped a lot of the last few replies, but I have one thing to say. Someone mentioned God creating Adam and Eve and know they'd fail. I believe God did this and He did this because there would be no other way for humans to truly have free will than the way He has Created Earth and the way it's ran its course. And i guess He just wanted us to have free will.

[YLTYLT]

Ok I've skipped a lot of the last few replies, but I have one thing to say. Someone mentioned God creating Adam and Eve and know they'd fail. I believe God did this and He did this because there would be no other way for humans to truly have free will than the way He has Created Earth and the way it's ran its course. And i guess He just wanted us to have free will.

Absolutely Correct, because "LOVE without the option to "Not Love"", is not love at all, but forced obedience.

[Enigma7457]

I have come to believe from my experiences that there are many unconscious influences in our lives. Do not mistake me, I believe we are responsible for our actions but I am simple saying there are many unconscious factors that make us who we are. I have seen in my counseling experience many people in pain who wanted to change but could not manage to escape from their past such as in child abuse cases. I do not believe the statement "God will not give us more than we can handle." I have seen many people who had practically no chance in having a happy life. With some of the people I counseled I was simply amazed that they were still living. I have seen people changed and move forward but even then there were always the scares left by their past. Obviously, I would not have been a Counselor if I did not think people could change.

CS Lewis talks about this in one of his books. A segment below:

Some of us who seem quite nice people may, in fact, have made so little use of good heredity and a good upbringing that we are really worse than those whom we regard as friends. Can we be quite certain how we should have behaved if we had been saddled with the psychological outfit, and then with the bad upbringing, and then with the power, say, of Himmler? That is why Christians are told not to judge. We see only the results which a man's choices make out of his raw material. But God does not judge him on raw material at all, but on what he has done with it. Most of a man's psychological makeup is probably due to his body: when his body dies that will fall off him, and the real central man, the thing that chose, that made the best or the worst out of this material, will stand naked. All sorts of nice things which we thought our own, but which were really due to a good digestion, will fall off some of us: all sorts of nasty things which were due to complexes or bad health will fall off others. We shall then, for the first time, see every one as he really was. There will be surprises.

I couldn't agree more with this section. It does not excuse any man (or woman) for his actions, it only takes into account the 'materials' that the man (or woman) had to use to make those decisions.

Now, we have to remember that this is CS Lewis and not the bible. So all other things must be considered. However, I am in agreement with this.