Catholicism and Mary

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Catholicism and Mary

#1

Post by Atticus Finch » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:15 pm

This is a very simple and naive question. I seek no strife in asking and only wish for clarificaiton since my family are Catholic.

I do not find in the Bible the justification for the emphasis the Catholic Church places upon Mary. Of course, Matthew and Luke offer lovely stories about Jesus' birth and the Angel's greeting and speech unto Mary, yet it seems a small amount of words for such importance which is placed on Mary by the Church.

Could someone please offer a rational explanation for be about this issue? Thank you.

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Re: Catholicism and Mary

#2

Post by Byblos » Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:22 pm

Atticus Finch wrote:This is a very simple and naive question. I seek no strife in asking and only wish for clarificaiton since my family are Catholic.

I do not find in the Bible the justification for the emphasis the Catholic Church places upon Mary. Of course, Matthew and Luke offer lovely stories about Jesus' birth and the Angel's greeting and speech unto Mary, yet it seems a small amount of words for such importance which is placed on Mary by the Church.

Could someone please offer a rational explanation for be about this issue? Thank you.
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#3

Post by Acronym » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:22 am

Despite any explanation given, I see no scriptural evidence or command for the emphasis put on Mary.

Why is she included in Catholic prayers when it is in no way how Jesus commanded us to pray?

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#4

Post by Byblos » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:40 am

Acronym wrote:Despite any explanation given, ...
In other words, we'll just have to agree to disagree. :wink:
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#5

Post by Acronym » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:02 pm

"In other words, we'll just have to agree to disagree"

Not if I'm given a scriptural explanation. Anything of the sort that is implied, or based on ones interpertation, that was not commanded of us should not be used.

If anyone can show me, in scripture, that it is good for us to place such an emphasis on Mary, or use her in our prayers, I am all open ears. Other than that, please read any of the Gospels on how Jesus commanded us to pray.

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#6

Post by Byblos » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:29 am

Acronym wrote:"In other words, we'll just have to agree to disagree"

Not if I'm given a scriptural explanation. Anything of the sort that is implied, or based on ones interpertation, that was not commanded of us should not be used.

If anyone can show me, in scripture, that it is good for us to place such an emphasis on Mary, or use her in our prayers, I am all open ears. Other than that, please read any of the Gospels on how Jesus commanded us to pray.
Of course I could provide scripture but the trouble is some of what I consider inspired scripture you would probably classify as apocryphal. So the issue cannot possibly be settled until and unless we can agree on common scriptural ground. But that's not happening any time soon, now is it?

What I will do instead is offer you the following link, written by an evangelical, on how to 'recover a fully biblical appreciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her role in the history of salvation-and to do so precisely as evangelicals.'

While the elevation of Mary by Catholics is at times unnerving (contrary to official Catholic doctrine I might add), the lack of respect and appreciation shown her since the reformation is as equally unnerving (contrary to what Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the likes believed, I might add).

Hope this helps.

God bless,

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Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#7

Post by Acronym » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:20 pm

While the elevation of Mary by Catholics is at times unnerving (contrary to official Catholic doctrine I might add), the lack of respect and appreciation shown her since the reformation is as equally unnerving (contrary to what Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the likes believed, I might add).
Maybe true, but we should not base our faith in God, or the doctrine Jesus gave us, on what other men think. Anything other than what we were commanded by the Father and the Son is pure speculation.
What I will do instead is offer you the following link, written by an evangelical, on how to 'recover a fully biblical appreciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her role in the history of salvation-and to do so precisely as evangelicals.'
Skimming through the article it seems there is no scripture to back it up, and the references used seem very loosely interpreted to support this belief. I will read it again in more detail later today though, just to make sure I get the whole meaning.


I don't intend to belittle Mary's role at all, I merely just want to make sure I am not following traditions or customs that are not scriptural based. If, for example, Jesus had commanded us to place such an emphasis on Mary, and include her in prayers, I would have no problem. But He didn't, in fact, he told us exactly how our prayers should be, and where to place our hearts and faith (in the Father and the Son). Jesus himself never place the emphasis on Mary that many do today (namely catholic based), neither did the apostles or desciples. This tradition seemed to have been brought in place later on, after the romanization of the church.

All I am saying, is be careful, this is not stuff we should take lightly.

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#8

Post by Byblos » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:46 am

Acronym wrote:Skimming through the article it seems there is no scripture to back it up, and the references used seem very loosely interpreted to support this belief. I will read it again in more detail later today though, just to make sure I get the whole meaning.
I hope you do get to read it in detail because it offers a ton of scripture as to Mary's vital role in the Gospel.

Acronym wrote:I don't intend to belittle Mary's role at all
I certainly didn't take it that way.
Acronym wrote:I merely just want to make sure I am not following traditions or customs that are not scriptural based. If, for example, Jesus had commanded us to place such an emphasis on Mary, and include her in prayers, I would have no problem. But He didn't, in fact, he told us exactly how our prayers should be, and where to place our hearts and faith (in the Father and the Son). Jesus himself never place the emphasis on Mary that many do today (namely catholic based), neither did the apostles or desciples. This tradition seemed to have been brought in place later on, after the romanization of the church.
I know where you're coming from Acronym but I still don't know what you mean by placing emphasis on Mary. First off, let me ask you this: Does the Bible encourage intercessory prayers? I think the answer to that is a rather obvious yes. The emphasis on Mary falls in that category of intercessory requests, asking for her intercession with her son, no more and no less (contrary to popular belief). The emphasis then is directed not towards her but towards her Son, where it belongs.

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#9

Post by Acronym » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:23 pm

The emphasis on Mary falls in that category of intercessory requests, asking for her intercession with her son
But she is dead, how does intercession work then? When we do this are we praying to Mary on Behalf of her Jesus or to Jesus on behalf of Mary?

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#10

Post by Byblos » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:51 pm

Acronym wrote:
The emphasis on Mary falls in that category of intercessory requests, asking for her intercession with her son
But she is dead, how does intercession work then? When we do this are we praying to Mary on Behalf of her Jesus or to Jesus on behalf of Mary?
She is very much alive in Christ.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#11

Post by FFC » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:36 pm

Byblos, a question just popped into my mind. Is Mary omnicient...because it would seem she would have to be to field so many prayers from around the world? Just an innocent question. :twisted: :lol:
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#12

Post by Byblos » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:56 pm

FFC wrote:Byblos, a question just popped into my mind. Is Mary omnicient...because it would seem she would have to be to field so many prayers from around the world? Just an innocent question. :twisted: :lol:
No such thing my friend (an innocent question). I've addressed this point in detail with August. The short answer is no, she does not have to be omniscient. Nor does heaven have to operate under universal spacial and time constraints either.
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#13

Post by FFC » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:41 pm

Byblos wrote:
FFC wrote:Byblos, a question just popped into my mind. Is Mary omnicient...because it would seem she would have to be to field so many prayers from around the world? Just an innocent question. :twisted: :lol:
No such thing my friend (an innocent question). I've addressed this point in detail with August. The short answer is no, she does not have to be omniscient. Nor does heaven have to operate under universal spacial and time constraints either.
That is a resonable answer, my friend. Let me ask you this since you are apparantly at this time our "go to" Catholic source. :wink:

If all we who put our faith in Christ for salvation are "saints", does that mean we can pray to departed family members and friends for results?
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#14

Post by Byblos » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:47 pm

FFC wrote:That is a resonable answer, my friend. Let me ask you this since you are apparantly at this time our "go to" Catholic source. :wink:

If all we who put our faith in Christ for salvation are "saints", does that mean we can pray to departed family members and friends for results?
That's an excellent question and the answer from a Catholic perspective is yes. Now before everyone start jumping on me that that would make the finished work of Christ on the cross not quite finished, please let me explain.

First, it depends on what you mean by 'results'. If you mean that we can help them with their salvation then the answer is no. Salvation (or lack thereof) is pretty much sealed immediately after death, so yes, the finished work of Christ on the cross is truly finished (I'm sure everyone was waiting for me to proclaim that to make it true, right? :wink:).

Second, the way I've come to understand the Catholic doctrine of purgatory (which is really what we're talking about here) is that it is quite the same as the Bema Seat Judgement of Christ. It's not a physical place per se but it certainly is a place where we will face Christ after death to answer for our deeds, good or bad. Not to determine our salvation; that's already been secured as stated above. But it is a place where good deeds will result in just heavenly rewards, and bad deeds will result in lack of rewards as well as great shame and sorrow (you think it's gonna be easy facing Christ who'll go down the list of all the bad we've done? I for one am looking forward to it and dreading it at the same time).

Third, we can help those in purgatory (or facing Christ at his judgement seat) by praying for them that Christ may ease their pain (sort of go easy on them). Will it help? I don't know. But if there's a chance that it might, I don't want to miss out on it.

That's how I see it.

God bless,

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Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#15

Post by Jac3510 » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:24 pm

Salvation (or lack thereof) is pretty much sealed immediately after death
So salvation isn't sealed the moment we believe? (2 Cor. 1:21-22; Eph 1:13-14; 4:30) And isn't condemnation already sealed? (John 3:18) ;)

In all seriousness, how do you mean the above statement? How is our sealing different in death than it was in life?
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And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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