All knowing= No free will

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Jay_7
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All knowing= No free will

Post by Jay_7 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:49 am

What are your views on this?

They say that if Gods all knowing then we have no free will, if he knows what we done before we act them. Im struggling to find an answer as to why this could be false? Any suggestions? All i can think of is Gods universe must be very different concept and all, and that this has no meaning there, or that God has very good prediction skills??

Anyway, the Bible says hes all knowing, but does it say he knows the future? He may be all knowing to the past and present only?
Last edited by Jay_7 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Deborah
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Post by Deborah » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:59 am

you forgot that he also knows our hearts. perhaps this is how he know the future.

many believe that because he does not want any to perish, then none will. He is a patient God and is willing to wait.
Church tradition tells us that when John, son of Zebadee and brother of James was an old man, his disciples would carry him to church in their arms.
He would simply say, “Little children, love one another”
After a time his disciples wearied at always hearing these same words and asked “Master why do you always say this?
He replied, “it is the Lords command, and if done, it is enough”

Jay_7
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Post by Jay_7 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:02 am

Deborah wrote:you forgot that he also knows our hearts. perhaps this is how he know the future.

many believe that because he does not want any to perish, then none will. He is a patient God and is willing to wait.
yeah, but the bible says hes all knowing, but did they actually say hes all knowing of the future? Maybe he just meant the past and present

If you read this: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php ... post930420 theres an arguement, can anyone prove what they suggest is wrong?

Never mind i found this http://www.carm.org/questions/free_will.htm

But people can still post their thoughts here!

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AttentionKMartShoppers
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Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:52 am

Yeah, I love that ridiculous non-sequitor argument. It's nothing but a joke. If it's an atheist that brings it up, just say that their worldview doesn't give them any free world, because if physicalism is true, then they are the sum total of their genes, environment, and chemical reactions in their head.
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ryo dokomi
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Post by ryo dokomi » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:32 pm

God is all-knowing, that means ALL things, past, present, and future. This is possible because God doesn't live in time. technically, we, living in time, don't have a present, we have a past and future but no present, because time is always moving past it...therefore, God is in the true 'present'....remember what He is called the Great "I AM"...also we have to have free will because if we didn't have free will, then Love would be a sham...it would be fake, but God wants us to FREELY Love and worship Him. FREELY, FREELY, FREELY!!!!!!!!!!
when i get these questions, its like the popular one that states
"if God is all powerful, can he make a rock so big that He cant lift it?"
of course he can, He's God...that is the Bottom line. God lives in a 'dimension' that we cant fathom. for instance, we live in a 3D world, but scientists say that there are 9 dimensions at least, try and fathom that. Also, try and fathom a dimension known as the "Spirit Realm" that is not in time, that is where God dwells...it is just a mystery, all we know is that God says there is free will, and we just take it by His word, in Faith.
Therefore, submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. James 4:7

it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19

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Believer
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Post by Believer » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:13 pm

Jay_7 wrote:
Deborah wrote:you forgot that he also knows our hearts. perhaps this is how he know the future.

many believe that because he does not want any to perish, then none will. He is a patient God and is willing to wait.
yeah, but the bible says hes all knowing, but did they actually say hes all knowing of the future? Maybe he just meant the past and present

If you read this: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php ... post930420 theres an arguement, can anyone prove what they suggest is wrong?

Never mind i found this http://www.carm.org/questions/free_will.htm

But people can still post their thoughts here!
Here is the start of the thread and the poster's first post on his position why there is no proof for the Christian God.

Mystical
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Post by Mystical » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:23 pm

Just because God knows what's going to happen, doesn't mean He controls what's going to happen. A simple example: you see a child reaching for a cookie out of the cookie jar perched precariously on the edge of a table. You know it's going to fall. You let it fall. The child learns to maybe use a chair next time or ask for help. Because you didn't interfere, the child learned. Just because you knew what was going to happen, does this mean that the child's actions were not his/her own?

Also, I believe there are numerous possibilities in our decisions, and that God knows the outcome of all our possible decisions. I don't think there is just one path that we can take...just a thought.

Jay_7
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Post by Jay_7 » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:41 pm

Mystical wrote:Just because God knows what's going to happen, doesn't mean He controls what's going to happen. A simple example: you see a child reaching for a cookie out of the cookie jar perched precariously on the edge of a table. You know it's going to fall. You let it fall. The child learns to maybe use a chair next time or ask for help. Because you didn't interfere, the child learned. Just because you knew what was going to happen, does this mean that the child's actions were not his/her own?

Also, I believe there are numerous possibilities in our decisions, and that God knows the outcome of all our possible decisions. I don't think there is just one path that we can take...just a thought.
Theres alot of possibilitys, atheist just stick to one and try prove it wrong, but fail. :lol:

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B. W.
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Re: All knowing= No free will

Post by B. W. » Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:35 pm

Jay_7 wrote:What are your views on this?

They say that if Gods all knowing then we have no free will, if he knows what we done before we act them. Im struggling to find an answer as to why this could be false? Any suggestions? All i can think of is Gods universe must be very different concept and all, and that this has no meaning there, or that God has very good prediction skills??

Anyway, the Bible says hes all knowing, but does it say he knows the future? He may be all knowing to the past and present only?

Well, this was discussed on the Theology thread at:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1602-15.html

Hope it helps...

Jay_7
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Re: All knowing= No free will

Post by Jay_7 » Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:09 pm

B. W. wrote:
Jay_7 wrote:What are your views on this?

They say that if Gods all knowing then we have no free will, if he knows what we done before we act them. Im struggling to find an answer as to why this could be false? Any suggestions? All i can think of is Gods universe must be very different concept and all, and that this has no meaning there, or that God has very good prediction skills??

Anyway, the Bible says hes all knowing, but does it say he knows the future? He may be all knowing to the past and present only?

Well, this was discussed on the Theology thread at:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1602-15.html

Hope it helps...
Thanks. I think of it like this, something would have to happen for God to know about it, right? Well if God knows all, then it must have happened, which it is happening right now. So that brings us to the point where we say, then Gods controlling the Earth, well he isnt, because he knew before this happened that it was going to happen, and he cant of known what he was going to do in the future, as he doesnt live in time, he only knows what will happen in our universes future. I admit this theory may not make complete sence so please tell me if theres something wrong with it. Because i have a few others that may make more sence.


Try and picture it as you have your own universe in a box at home right now, and the computer thats connected to it says whats going to happen, but the computer is for the universe you own, not YOUR home, so it doesnt predict what you (the creator) are going to do, just whats going to happen in your box which consist fo the universe.

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Re: All knowing= No free will

Post by Cliffwood PCA » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:30 pm

Jay_7 wrote:What are your views on this?

They say that if Gods all knowing then we have no free will, if he knows what we done before we act them. Im struggling to find an answer as to why this could be false? Any suggestions? All i can think of is Gods universe must be very different concept and all, and that this has no meaning there, or that God has very good prediction skills??

Anyway, the Bible says hes all knowing, but does it say he knows the future? He may be all knowing to the past and present only?
Struggling with this question assumes a linear thinking with a cause and effect response.
God is all knowing. He is outside of linear time. With him a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. He is pressing his creation forward to the end that he has designed. He not only knows the end but has ordained it as well. We are not puppets on a string. We have the freedom of choice but we will always choose according to our bias and desires. Those are directly affected by the influence of the Holy Spirit and the providence of God. Our life circumstances are set by God just as they were in the life of Joseph who found himself tossed into a hole and then a prison all to arrive at just the place and time that God wanted him to be in yet when he ran from Potifers wife, that was his choice. It was necessary but it was his choice never-the-less.
Clearly, this is something that we will struggle to understand because we are so finite in our thinking and our understanding.
Blessings,
MC

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Brigham
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Post by Brigham » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:25 am

C.S. Lewis answered it for me. Obviously God is outside of time right? Time is really a tunnel we are stuck in, but its not the whole picture.

Heres what he said, basically:

Picture it like this U have a piece of paper, with a small line drawn on it. This line is the tunnel we are trapped in. We must move along the line, going nowhere else. However God is in the whole paper, not just the line. So he sees the whole line at once. So its not that he knows what your gonna do in the FUTURE, its that he sees you doing it right NOW. Now if you knew what you were gonna do, youd say maybe you could change it huh? Well thats why we DONT know lol, We would mess things all up. God bless.


-Brigham

Jay_7
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Post by Jay_7 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:22 pm

Thanks everybody, i completly get it now. :)

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Post by SUGAAAAA » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:59 pm

Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something.

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