The rock question...

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:44 pm

I'm just curious, what do you guys usually say to one who asks you this:

"If God is all poweful, can He make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift?"

I have my own special answer, I just want to know what other people have to say.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:41 pm

A similar topic came up at http://discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?t=68. So I'll just repeat what I said there.

CS Lewis wrote in his The Problem of Pain:
<blockquote>"It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God."</blockquote>The feat of God creating a rock so big He can't lift it (which mind you could have been possible through Christ's incarnation

), if taken as intended may upon first glance seem valid. However, it is really in the category of nonsense Lewis describes above. Just because I can say a cat is lying on the mat while running doesn't mean I've said anything meaningful.

Some other links you might like to read are:
- Can God Make a Rock So Big He Can't Lift It?
- Can God Create a Rock So Heavy He Can't Lift It? - Can God Truly Be Omnipotent?

Kurieuo.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:56 pm

I'm afraid I have to disagree. Most explanations people bring up is that God cannot do the impossible because of what omnipotency means etc etc. Anyway, here is my answer:

If God is Allmighty, then he can make a rock that He can lift and not lift at the same time.

Sound impossible? If He truly can do anything, then He should be able to do the impossible, and I for one firmly believe that He can. Remember, things make sense to us because these things were made to make sense in this Universe. It is known as Order. Just because something does not make sense to man does not mean it does not make sense to God. To accept that God cannot do something because of the nature of the question is, to me, unacceptable. It is a pity I never find this point being made anywhere, because I think it is an interesting way to look at things.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:05 pm

I'd also agree if God can do anything He desires, He can do it. However, I don't believe God can do something that isn't really something.

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:23 pm

Mastermind wrote:Remember, things make sense to us because these things were made to make sense in this Universe. It is known as Order.

Sorry, I glimmed over this part.

I tend to believe that order, such as the laws of logic (e.g., the law of non-contradiction), is something that always applies. Such laws were not "made", but I think it more correct to say they are rooted in God. That is, such "Order" is inherent within God's nature. Therefore if God is eternal, then such "Order" is also eternal.

Additionally, God at least has to remain consistent with His own nature, otherwise how could we seriously trust Him? For example, someone might ask whether God can sin or break His promises? Can God oppose His own righteous nature? I'd say it doesn't make sense to say God can defeat His own nature, something I believe the first article I referenced above makes clear.

Kurieuo.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:44 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Mastermind wrote:Remember, things make sense to us because these things were made to make sense in this Universe. It is known as Order.
Sorry, I glimmed over this part.

I tend to believe that order, such as the laws of logic (e.g., the law of non-contradiction), is something that always applies. Such laws were not "made", but I think it more correct to say they are rooted in God. That is, such "Order" is inherent within God's nature. Therefore if God is eternal, then such "Order" is also eternal.

Additionally, God at least has to remain consistent with His own nature, otherwise how could we seriously trust Him? For example, someone might ask whether God can sin or break His promises? Can God oppose His own righteous nature? I'd say it doesn't make sense to say God can defeat His own nature, something I believe the first article I referenced above makes clear.

Kurieuo.

The Bible states that God came first. God was not Order. Order cannot exist without reason, and as a result, God must first exist before Order can exist. Let us not forget that God has the power to break the laws that he made for our Universe(I am talking about physics, not theological laws). It only makes sense that God is capable of doing anything that he wishes. He will not do anything that is against His nature(Good), but that does not mean he cannot. Will not and can not are two different things. God can, but will not. I remember a nice passage I read in a book for my english class about the conversion of the Indians by Thomas(At least I think it was Thomas). , and how Thomas defied the law of gravity to show them why God's power was stronger than their own deities. I will try to see if I can find it.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:10 pm

If I can just interject here . . . Mastermind, I think you are missing K's point. Can God sin? Can God lie? Can He tempt us to do evil? Can He be imperfect? Can He worship Satan?

There are certain things that God CANNOT do, and those are the things that are inconsistent with His nature. You just admitted that God cannot break theological laws . . . your basis MUST be that those laws are within the very nature of God Himself, for they certainly couldn't be OVER God. If they were, well, then God wouldn't be the ultimate authority, now would He?

So, look at the logic:
1) God is sinless
2) If God sinned, He wouldn't be sinless
3) Therefore, God cannot sin.

You see that all logic is, is the layout of basic truths in an understandable way. God cannot do things that are self contradictory, or that are contradictory with His nature. Omnipotence simply means, He can do all things possible. It is impossible for Him to sin (it is self contradictory), and therefore, He cannot do it. We see, then, that the Law of Non-Contradiction is firmly embedded within the nature of God Himself. Can God be not-God? Can God create a God more powerful than Himself? Can God remember a time that He did not exist? All of these things are self-contradictions, and thus, violate His own character.

So, the answer to the original riddle is that God can't make a rock so big that He can't lift, because, if He did, He wouldn't be God anymore. It is self-contradiction, and self-contradiction is at the heart of God's essence.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:27 pm

I got K's point just fine. I think you do not understand my point. For example:

"So, look at the logic:
1) God is sinless
2) If God sinned, He wouldn't be sinless
3) Therefore, God cannot sin. "

I agree with the first two points, but disagree with the third.
"3) Therefore. God DOES NOT sin." would serve the same purpose, without incapacitating God's power. Again, God being capable of sinning in no way makes Him look weaker or contradictory. God being able to go against His nature means nothing if He does not do it. Saying otherwise, to me, implies two things:

1: God does not have free will. For God to be good, He has to be able to choose Good, otherwise, is He really good if He is preprogrammed?
2: God is not all powerful. I don't think the Bible ever says God CANNOT do something. The words seem carefully chosen, because it usually says He "does not".

The main point of my idea is that DOES NOT =/= CANNOT

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:23 pm

By "Order" I simply meant logical order which is what I believe you originally intended by this term. God is logical, therefore logic is an eternal property of God. Try this one:

1) If God can do illogical and logical feats, then God who is eternal by nature can cease to exist.
2) If God ceases to exist, then God can't take up His life again otherwise He did not really cease to exist.
3) Therefore, God can not do all illogical feats.

Kurieuo.

PS. As long as your satisfied with your own response, that is what matters. It doesn't hurt to know additional responses though.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:32 pm

Kurieuo wrote:By "Order" I simply meant logical order which is what I believe you originally intended by this term. God is logical, therefore logic is an eternal property of God. Try this one:

1) If God can do illogical and logical feats, then God who is eternal by nature can cease to exist.
2) If God ceases to exist, then God can't take up His life again otherwise He did not really cease to exist.
3) Therefore, God can not do all illogical feats.

Kurieuo.

PS. As long as your satisfied with your own response, that is what matters. It doesn't hurt to know additional responses though.

Truth is, we do not really know, so all we can do is speculate. But the above example is no different than the rock one. I could say God can cease to exist and not cease to exist at the same time. Personally, I like to think of God as absolute power able to do ANYTHING. Good thing is, He'll probably answer our questions after we die, so we won't have to keep wondering for eternity.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:34 pm

EDIT:

wrong scripture reference.. brb

REDIT:

Actually, I don't want to get this off topic by arguing impeccability. Let's just stick with a simple passage of something God cannot do: He can't lie (Titus 1:2)

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:50 pm

That says he DOES NOT lie. Not CANNOT lie.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:54 pm

Stronger yet is Hebrews 6:18 - "God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged."

Kurieuo.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:19 am

"And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God" (Luke 18:27).

I think that pretty much states God can do anything man cannot. For that verse you cited, I think I shall grab my own Bible(which is probably older than I am), and see what the translation is. Although seeing a lot of people have problems understanding the difference between does not and cannot, I wouldn't be surprised if the translator didn't either.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:51 am

I agree with Kurieuo here. For God to lie just makes no sense, because God IS truth. If God says something, it's no longer a lie.

That does not mean that God is not capable of something, or that He's not all-powerful. He can do anything within the confines of reality (which exists even for God, because God is real). Just because you can say that 5 is less than 3 does not make it true.