Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#16

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:55 pm

Paul, are you really saying that if an armed policeman had entered and killed the shooter before all of the people were killed, then that wouldn't have been better?
Before ALL? How on earth would a policeman KNOW to kill that kid BEFORE he started shooting?
I am saying that it is all well and good to suppose that IF there was security at the school or armed teachers that someone would have probably shot Adam before he killed as many people as he did but none of that would solve the problem of why Adam thought that killing children WAS an option.
Maybe Adam knowing that there were armed guards would have used an automatic instead of the hand guns, or maybe he would have used a bomb or maybe he would have sniped them...lots of maybes from both sides right?
Look, I am not saying that if someone had a gun that the death toll wouldn't be less and that it wouldn't have been better, what I am saying is when we start making this a number game, what are we doing ???
Instead of 27 dead, only 20? only 12 only 2?
I mean, is that what we should be discussing? because I am sure that if only 1 child had been killed it STILL sold have been horrific.
How many school mass shootings is this? Columbine? The one in Texas? I mean, after those it was the same arguments and still very few people addressing WHY they happened.
I know it is easier to focus on HOW it happened and HOW we can try to minimize the damage but, come on guys, this is PEOPLE getting killed, CHILDREN getting killed.
What could we have done to prevent this? not make it "less bad" but PREVENT.

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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#17

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:02 pm

Would I allow someone to kill me or my family rather than using a gun to shoot them?

Yes.

Further, believers throughout history have done the same starting with the martyrs in the early church.

It's not an easy path to consider or to walk I'm sure.

Jesus said, "Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account." Matthew 5.11

Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said to our ancestors: 'You must not kill; and anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court.' But I say this to you: anyone who is angry with his brother will answer for it before the court." Mt. 5.21-22

Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said: 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I say to you, Offer the wicked man no resistance. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him." Mt. 5.38-41

Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy; But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those whose persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Mt. 5.43-46

Jesus said, "You will be hated by all men on account of my name; but the man who stands firm to the end will be saved. If they persecute you in one town, take refuge in the next; and if they persecute you in that, take refuge in another." Mt. 10.22-23

Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; fear him rather who can destroy both body and soul in hell." Mt. 10.28

Jesus said, "If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it." Mt. 16.24-25

Jesus said, "I tell you solemnly, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Mt. 18.3

Jesus said, "See that you never despise any of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven are continually in the presence of my Father in heaven." Mt. 18.10

Jesus said, "anyone who wants to be great among you must be your servant, and anyone who wants to be first among you must be your slave, just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve." Mt. 20.26-28

esus said, "You must love your neighbor as yourself." Mt. 22.40

Jesus said, "I was hungry and you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me . . . I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me." And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life." Mt 25.42-43,45-46

Jesus said, "It is from within, from men's hearts, that evil intentions emerge: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, malice, deceit, indecency, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within and make a man unclean." Mk. 7.21-23

Jesus said, "you know the commandments: you must not kill..." Mark 10.18

Jesus said, "when you stand in prayer, forgive whatever you have against anybody, so that your Father in heaven may forgive your failings too." Mk. 11.25

Jesus said, "if anyone has two tunics, he must share with the man who has none, and the one with something to eat must do the same." Luke 3.11

Jesus said, "No intimidation! No extortion! Be content with your pay." Lk 3.14

Jesus said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly." Lk. 6.27-28

Jesus said, "Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate. Do not judge, and you will not be judge yourselves; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned yourselves; grant pardon, and you will be pardoned." Lk 6.27

Jesus said, "why do you call me, "Lord, Lord" and not do what I say?" Lk. 6.46

Jesus said, "What is written in the law? What do you read there? He replied, "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." "You have answered right," said Jesus "do this and life is yours." Lk 10.26-28

Jesus (on the cross) said, "Father, forgive them, they do not know what they are doing." Lk 23.34

Jesus said, "If there is one of you who has not sinned, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John. 8.7

Jesus said, "I give you a new commandment: love one another; just as I have loved you, you also must love one another. By this love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciples." Jn. 13.34-35

Jesus said, "Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me;" Jn. 14.21

Jesus said, "This is my commandment: love one another, as I have loved you." Jn. 14.22

Jesus said, "What I command you is to love one another." Jn. 14.27

Jesus said, "If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours as well. But it will be on my account that they will do all this, because they do not know the one who sent me." Jn. 15.20-21

Jesus said, "I have told you all this so that you may find peace in me. In the world you will have trouble, but be brave: I have conquered the world." Jn. 16.33

Jesus said, "I have made your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and so that I may be in them." Jn. 17.26

Jesus said, "mine is not a kingdom of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my men would have fought to prevent my being surrendered to the Jews. But my kingdom is not of this kind." Jn. 18.36

If you refuse to love, you must remain dead; to hate your brother is to be a murderer, and murderers, as you know, do not have eternal life in them. —1 John 3.15

I understand that the teaching of the church changed significant when it became the national religion of Rome. I don't see that as a positive in that context (and that's not aimed at Catholicism but at state churches.

It also adapted the teaching of Islamic Jihad in part during the crusades and the influx of Islamic invaders into Europe.

I prefer to look at what Christ and the Early Church taught AND practiced and it looks nothing like much of western Christendom's teachings today.
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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#18

Post by RickD » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:13 pm

Canuckster wrote:
Would I allow someone to kill me or my family rather than using a gun to shoot them?
Bart, I find it very difficult to believe that if you came home to intruders hurting your family, that you wouldn't use whatever means you could to protect them. What you seem to be saying is that if you walked in on intruders in your home who were beating your family, you'd sit down and say, " ok, my turn now".
Further, believers throughout history have done the same starting with the martyrs in the early church.
Bart, martyrs were killed because they wouldn't renounce their faith. Not because they were protecting their families.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#19

Post by Byblos » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:15 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:I prefer to look at what Christ and the Early Church taught AND practiced and it looks nothing like much of western Christendom's teachings today.
I honestly have no idea how you can make such a statement Bart knowing full well that one of the central arguments the Catholic Church puts forth for its claims is precisely the teachings and traditions of the early church. Your statement is incongruent with the history of the church. But we are way off topic so I will let you respond but won't pursue this any further.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#20

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:23 pm

http://www.earlychristiandictionary.com/War.html

And of these sayings the teaching is this: Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those who persecute you. For what reward is there for loving those who love you? Do not the Gentiles do the same? But love those who hate you, and you shall not have an enemy. Abstain from fleshly and worldly lusts. If someone strikes your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and you shall be perfect. Didache (A.D. 80-140) ch. 1

We who hated and destroyed one another, and on account of their different manners would not live with men of a different tribe, now, since the coming of Christ, live familiarly with them, and pray for our enemies, and endeavour to persuade those who hate us unjustly to live conformably to the good precepts of Christ, to the end that they may become partakers with us of the same joyful hope of a reward from God the ruler of all. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.167

We who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.176

(The following was written by a pagan Roman emperor regarding his experience with professing Christian soldiers in his army who refused to fight but instead offered prayers.) The Emperor Caesar Marcus Aurelius, to the People of Rome, and to the sacred Senate… I was surrounded by the enemy; And the enemy being at hand... there was close on us a mass of a mixed multitude of 977,000 men, which indeed we saw… Having then examined my own position, and my host, with respect to… the enemy, I quickly betook myself to prayer to the gods of my country. But being disregarded by them, I summoned those who among us go by the name of Christians. And having made inquiry, I discovered a great number and vast host of them, and raged against them, which was by no means becoming; for afterwards I learned their power. Wherefore they began the battle, not by preparing weapons, nor arms, nor bugles; for such preparation is hateful to them, on account of the God they bear about in their conscience. Therefore it is probable that those whom we suppose to be atheists, have God as their ruling power entrenched in their conscience. For having cast themselves on the ground, they prayed not only for me, but also for the whole army as it stood, that they might be delivered from the present thirst and famine. For during five days we had got no water, because there was none; for we were in the heart of Germany, and in the enemy's territory. And simultaneously with their casting themselves on the ground, and praying to God (a God of whom I am ignorant), water poured from heaven, upon us most refreshingly cool, but upon the enemies of Rome a withering hail. And immediately we recognized the presence of God following on the prayer - a God unconquerable and indestructible. Founding upon this, then, let us pardon such as are Christians, lest they pray for and obtain such a weapon against ourselves. And I counsel that no such person be accused on the ground of his being a Christian. But if any one be found laying to the charge of a Christian that he is a Christian, I desire that it be made manifest that he who is accused as a Christian, and acknowledges that he is one, is accused of nothing else than only this, that he is a Christian; but that he who arraigns him be burned alive. And I further desire, that he who is entrusted with the government of the province shall not compel the Christian, who confesses and certifies such a matter, to retract; neither shall he commit him. And I desire that these things be confirmed by a decree of the Senate. And I command this my edict to be published in the Forum of Trajan, in order that it may be read. The prefect Vitrasius Pollio will see that it be transmitted to all the provinces round about, and that no one who wishes to make use of or to possess it be hindered from obtaining a copy from the document I now publish. Emperor Caesar Marcus Aurelius (A.D.160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.187

We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons - our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage - and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.254

No new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord's advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight."… the law of liberty… caused such a change in the state of things, that these [nations] did form the swords and war-lances into ploughshares, and changed them into pruning-hooks for reaping the corn, [that is], into instruments used for peaceful purposes, and that they are now unaccustomed to fighting, but when smitten, offer also the other cheek. Irenaeus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.512

For when they know that we cannot endure even to see a man put to death, though justly; who of them can accuse us of murder or cannibalism? …But we, deeming that to see a man put to death is much the same as killing him, have abjured such spectacles. How, then, when we do not even look on, lest we should contract guilt and pollution, can we put people to death? Athenagorus (A.D. 137) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.147

For He says, "Take no anxious thought for tomorrow," meaning that the man who has devoted himself to Christ ought to be sufficient to himself, and servant to himself, and moreover lead a life which provides for each day by itself. For it is not in war, but in peace, that we are trained. War needs great preparation, and luxury craves profusion; but peace and love, simple and quiet sisters, require no arms nor excessive preparation. The Word is their sustenance. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.235

In their wars, therefore, the Etruscans use the trumpet, the Arcadians the pipe, the Sicilians the pectides, the Cretans the lyre, the Lacedaemonians the flute, the Thracians the horn, the Egyptians the drum, and the Arabians the cymbal. The one instrument of peace, the Word alone by which we honor God, is what we employ. We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, and trumpet, and timbrel, and flute, which those expert in war and despisers of the fear of God were wont to make use of also in the choruses at their festive assemblies; that by such strains they might raise their dejected minds. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.248-249

For we do not train our women like Amazons to manliness in war; since we wish the men even to be peaceable. I hear that the Sarmatian women practice war no less than the men; and the women of the Sacae besides, who shoot backwards, feigning flight as well as the men. I am aware, too, that the women near Iberia practice manly work and toil, not refraining from their tasks even though near their delivery; but even in the very struggle of her pains, the woman, on being delivered, taking up the infant, carries it home. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.420

Above all, Christians are not allowed to correct with violence the delinquencies of sins. For it is not those that abstain from wickedness from compulsion, but those that abstain from choice, that God crowns. It is impossible for a man to be steadily good except by his own choice. For he that is made good by compulsion of another is not good; for he is not what he is by his own choice. For it is the freedom of each one that makes true goodness and reveals real wickedness. Whence through these dispositions God contrived to make His own disposition manifest. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.581

But now inquiry is made about this point, whether a believer may turn himself unto military service, and whether the military may be admitted unto the faith, even the rank and file, or each inferior grade, to whom there is no necessity for taking part in sacrifices or capital punishments… But how will a Christian man war, nay, how will he serve even in peace, without a sword, which the Lord has taken away? For albeit soldiers had come unto John, and had received the formula of their rule; albeit, likewise, a centurion had believed; still the Lord afterward, in disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier. No dress is lawful among us, if assigned to any unlawful action. Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.3 pg.73

I think we must first inquire whether warfare is proper at all for Christians. What sense is there in discussing the merely accidental, when that on which it rests is to be condemned? Do we believe it lawful for a human oath to be superadded to one divine, for a man to come under promise to another master after Christ, and to abjure father, mother, and all nearest kinsfolk, whom even the law has commanded us to honor and love next to God Himself, to whom the gospel, too, holding them only of less account than Christ, has in like manner rendered honor? Shall it be held lawful to make an occupation of the sword, when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword shall perish by the sword? And shall the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law? Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.3 pg. 99

Of course, if faith comes later, and finds any preoccupied with military service, their case is different, as in the instance of those whom John used to receive for baptism, and of those most faithful centurions, I mean the centurion whom Christ approves, and the centurion whom Peter instructs; yet, at the same time, when a man has become a believer, and faith has been sealed, there must be either an immediate abandonment of it, which has been the course with many; or all sorts of quibbling will have to be resorted to in order to avoid offending God, and that is not allowed even outside of military service; or, last of all, for God the fate must be endured which a citizen-faith has been no less ready to accept. Neither does military service hold out escape from punishment of sins, or exemption from martyrdom. Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.3 pg.100

"I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority;" and the more any one excels in piety, the more effective help does he render to kings, even more than is given by soldiers, who go forth to fight and slay as many of the enemy as they can. And to those enemies of our faith who require us to bear arms for the commonwealth, and to slay men, we can reply: "Do not those who are priests at certain shrines, and those who attend on certain gods, as you account them, keep their hands free from blood, that they may with hands unstained and free from human blood offer the appointed sacrifices to your gods; and even when war is upon you, you never enlist the priests in the army. If that, then, is a laudable custom, how much more so, that while others are engaged in battle, these too should engage as the priests and ministers of God, keeping their hands pure, and wrestling in prayers to God on behalf of those who are fighting in a righteous cause, and for the king who reigns righteously, that whatever is opposed to those who act righteously may be destroyed!" And as we by our prayers vanquish all demons who stir up war, and lead to the violation of oaths, and disturb the peace, we in this way are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them. And we do take our part in public affairs, when along with righteous prayers we join self-denying exercises and meditations, which teach us to despise pleasures, and not to be led away by them. And none fight better for the king than we do. We do not indeed fight under him, although he require it; but we fight on his behalf, forming a special army - an army of piety - by offering our prayers to God. Origen (A.D. 248) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.4 pg. 668
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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#21

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:24 pm

I think what Bart was saying is along the lines of:
How many Christians here think that, If Jesus was here right now and after this happened, Jesus would be preaching that their should be armed guards in the schools? and that shooting that shooter dead would have been the way to go and that the solution is more guns?

I have been reading this on a few other forums, not just this one and hearing the various views on TV and talk shows and can I say something for a second here?
This is NOT directed at you guys by the way, it's just an observation:
People talk about killing other people like it means nothing.
Seriously, WTF?
Have these people actually ever killed anyone?

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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#22

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:27 pm

RickD wrote:
Canuckster wrote:
Would I allow someone to kill me or my family rather than using a gun to shoot them?
Bart, I find it very difficult to believe that if you came home to intruders hurting your family, that you wouldn't use whatever means you could to protect them. What you seem to be saying is that if you walked in on intruders in your home who were beating your family, you'd sit down and say, " ok, my turn now".
Further, believers throughout history have done the same starting with the martyrs in the early church.
Bart, martyrs were killed because they wouldn't renounce their faith. Not because they were protecting their families.
I would use many means to protect them. Pacifism isn't apathy. Presenting it as such is a strawman argument and an appeal to human emotion to attempt to say to me and apparently Christ that He didn't really mean all those things.

I think he did mean them. I think that's part of the reason why following Christ is a narrow path and not easy by any means.

Martyrs watched their families as fellow-believers as well. Research it. You'll see.
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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#23

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:42 pm

Byblos, no offense intended. There is however a great gulf between what the early church taught and practiced in many areas before the general time of Nicea. Certainly there are parallels and continuances, but in this area of peace, war and violence there is a 180 degree turn and it is easily explained by the necessity of the church to adapt their teachings for the state that adopted the religion.

I am not anti-Catholic. I am also however not naive to the pressures upon the church when it sought to follow the kingdoms of men over the kingdom of God and that in and of itself, in my view and estimation was a violation of direct teaching from Christ. Protestants have done it as well. It's prevalent in Western Theology and Church History.
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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#24

Post by jlay » Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:52 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:Would I allow someone to kill me or my family rather than using a gun to shoot them?

Yes.
Then you are failing your Christian duties as a father and husband to appeal to some other ideal.
Further, believers throughout history have done the same starting with the martyrs in the early church.
Fail. If you think getting killed in a home invasion makes you a martyr, then you have a very wrong definition of the term.
Also, the apostle life is one best fitted to the non-married. I'm sure you are familiar with Paul's comments on marriage. Once you have a family, your burden shifts. Unless you think Jesus is really calling us to "leave our wives and children."
Jesus said, "Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account."
Again, your context is completely out of place. If you are persecuted for advancing the Gospel that is one thing. Defending your family and home from criminals is another.
Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said to our ancestors: 'You must not kill; and anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court.' But I say this to you: anyone who is angry with his brother will answer for it before the court."

He also said, sell all you have, give to the poor...
Context is everything.
Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said: 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I say to you, Offer the wicked man no resistance. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him."
Context, being Jews dealing with an oppressive Roman regime.
Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy; But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those whose persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?

Context is persecution.
Jesus said, "You will be hated by all men on account of my name; but the man who stands firm to the end will be saved. If they persecute you in one town, take refuge in the next; and if they persecute you in that, take refuge in another."
Context is persecution and specifically "on account of my name."
Jesus said, "If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it."
This is a very specific calling, and in that context I seriously doubt you are living this out.
"You must love your neighbor as yourself."

If I break into my neighbors home intent on doing them harm, I expect to be shot dead.
Jesus said, "I was hungry and you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me . . . I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me." And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life."
This makes the assumption that the needy are criminal. They aren't. I don't see anyone advocating shooting the homeless or taking target practice at the soup kitchen. When you open your home to the destitute people on the street, get back to me.
Jesus said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly."
It's really hard to pray and do good when your dead.
Jesus said, "Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate. Do not judge, and you will not be judge yourselves; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned yourselves; grant pardon, and you will be pardoned."
So why do you lack compassion for your defenseless family? I'd say defending your family and home is compassion.
I prefer to look at what Christ and the Early Church taught AND practiced and it looks nothing like much of western Christendom's teachings today.
The early church sold what they had and lived in a theocratic commune, as they were called to usher in the earthly Kingdom for Messiah.
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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#25

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:35 pm

You're welcome to your opinions Jlay. I will believe and follow Christ. The greatest enemy of following Christ in many instances is the established religious community finding ways to rationalize away what Jesus teaches. That is why He had the most conflict with the established religious community and why you are, in my estimation responding to what Jesus said, without support from what He said. I'm prepared to live with the consequences of my beliefs and I expect others to be as well.

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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#26

Post by RickD » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:38 pm

Canuckster wrote:
I would use many means to protect them. Pacifism isn't apathy. Presenting it as such is a strawman argument and an appeal to human emotion to attempt to say to me and apparently Christ that He didn't really mean all those things.
Bart, by saying you would use many means to protect your family in the event of a home invasion, and saying that you would rather die than use a gun to protect your family is talking out of both sides of your mouth, isn't it? Unless by "many means", you mean non violent means. I just don't see that as realistic though. We're talking about home invasions where many times, the invaders are high on drugs, and aren't rational. I'm certainly not saying pacifism is apathy. I don't see any of the scripture you posted that shows Jesus as saying we shouldn't protect our children, or other people who cannot protect themselves. One can certainly be a pacifist and still protect his family. I would even argue that one could be a pacifist, own a gun for protection, and still not go against anything Christ preached.
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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#27

Post by neo-x » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:48 pm

I agree with Paul here on all accounts, the debate about gun control seems pointless. The U.S is the only country in the world where this happens more too often. And not to put too fine a point on it, how do other countries deal with this? In Pakistan, (we have the worst place in world today), but even we don't have school shootings like this. The only massacres we get is when terrorists bomb blast a place or the Americans drop a bomb on us from a friendly drone.

There is something wrong in the system. I can't place my finger on it. But Paul is right. No one is addressing the why and I think this is because no one has looked at that. Why do younger people take out their rage in schools, malls, cinemas. Are they terrorists? criminals? insane? An insane person does not plan. Where is the pressure coming from which is driving these young people to do such horrific acts? You want to know how it happened then ask when did no one took Adam Lanza behavior as odd? Why no one listened to him? Why didn't his father and brother talk to him for 2 years? He was no criminal, not even one day before the shooting. What happened? what snapped him? Its a social pressure alright, if he had wanted to be famous, he would have lived and not put the gun to himself. The reason he did so was - I think - that he knew no body really cared whether he lived or died and he didn't care what anybody thought of him in the after math.

All that boy really needed was a father who could slap some sense into him but he wasn't around. The reason he shot his mother first says it all. He was probably tired of life and before these shooting, no one cared about what he felt. Hell, even now people treat Lanza as if he was a remote control terrorist, having no emotion. And that is the problem. As long as you kill "the terrorist" first, all is fine. Why don't you actually listen to him and see why is he doing so. Because I think the answer is bitter and the problem goes into society. Adam lanza is not the problem, he is the result of the problem.

And no offense, but Americans, most of them seem pretty possessive about their firearms. Everywhere I look I see "Oh, please don't take my gun away" rant going on, like little children. I find that disturbing and odd. Why are you guys so fixated on your guns? Is that even healthy?

And just as a side point I understand what Bart is saying and I think I would agree with him.

Here's a question to you Jilay and others with the same stance. If Jesus was living today in America in house in Texas, and some home invasion occurred trying to kill his mother Mary and his brother or sisters. Do you think Jesus would run and get his semi-automatic to whack some dudes because this isn't about preaching but duty?
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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#28

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:01 am

I remember back to the Columbine massacre and how the killers said that what they were doing was because they were bullied and how the community denied that, how they said that those kids were disturbed and they didn't know why they did the shooting, even though on the video the shooters say why.
There is a culture of entitlement and denialability that we are going through.
We think we are entitled to things that we should earn, we deny that every action we have can lead to a disastrous consequence.
We deny that we are our brothers keeps, we have family members and neighbours and "friends" of killers that, after they kill, say "He was such a nice boy", "There was no indication of anything wrong" and so forth.
We don't want to see the problems and issues because that means we have to do something to help, we don't want to see our fault and blame and neglect when someome that needs love and compassion is treated cold and with disregard and then they snap and we ask, "why would he do that?"
We talk about killing like it was "free" and wonder why people kill like it means nothing.

We need to look in the mirror people and we need to fix the person looking back.

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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#29

Post by jlay » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:47 am

Canuckster1127 wrote:You're welcome to your opinions Jlay. I will believe and follow Christ. The greatest enemy of following Christ in many instances is the established religious community finding ways to rationalize away what Jesus teaches. That is why He had the most conflict with the established religious community and why you are, in my estimation responding to what Jesus said, without support from what He said. I'm prepared to live with the consequences of my beliefs and I expect others to be as well.

Blessings to you.
Bart, it's really more than just a battle of opinions. I've certainly been wrong on positions before and I'd say I will be again. But the old "I'll follow Christ" statement is just a clever way of saying others aren't trusting Christ because they don't agree with you. I've always said you are the master of insulting people while making it sound to others as if you are doing them a favor. I pointed out some obvious flaws in your prooftexts. If you think it's "Christ like" to prooftext in obvious error of scriptural application then so be it. There is really nothing that irks me more politically than the right wing hijakcs faith/Bible/religion to promote a position. But I see little more than the same with liberal positions. The old "If Jesus were here would he,... drill for oil, carry a gun," or any other talking point you want to insert.
neo-x wrote:Here's a question to you Jilay and others with the same stance. If Jesus was living today in America in house in Texas, and some home invasion occurred trying to kill his mother Mary and his brother or sisters. Do you think Jesus would run and get his semi-automatic to whack some dudes because this isn't about preaching but duty?
AS shown above, these questions are absurd.
The U.S is the only country in the world where this happens more too often.

It's certainly reported more, but other parts of the world suffer random acts of violence. In the US it stands out like a zit on a super model, as it should. But I think it is in error to say it happens more. The Bible itself records acts of senseless violence against children, some even endorsed by the state. There is nothing new under the sun. Was this fellow any more crazy than say King Herod? The only difference is how these acts are carried out. It isn't the system. It is humanity. We can speculate that, well.. his mom put his shoes on too tight, but in the end this was a calculated, conscious decision to commit an atrocity. Just yesterday, a man was arrested here in Knoxville on an elementary school playground with a gun. Police suspect he was a copy cat, but was spotted, authorities called, and apprehended before anything happened.
Do you know how many suicide bombings, acts of genoicide will be committed this month in 3rd world countries and barely register a blip on the radar?
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Re: Newtown Massacre & Gun Control

#30

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:27 am

AS shown above, these questions are absurd.
Actually, they aren't.
The one act of direct violence in the NT in which a person hurts another to save another is when Peter attacks and cuts the ear off on of the slaves that came with the guards to arrest Jesus and what did Jesus say and do?
Of course this is Jesus we are talking about.
I think that you would be hard press to find Jesus being against self-protection BUT you would be even MORE hard pressed to find Him being for killing as a solution to a problem of this magnitude.

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