Just War Theory

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Gman
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Just War Theory

#1

Post by Gman » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:21 pm

Folks,

We have yet another article on the godandscience website called the "Just War Theory."

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... ERqMZ4JZOi

Please read. If you have any comments please post them..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Just War Theory

#2

Post by ageofknowledge » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:35 pm

The article makes some very good points. But then we see that we have friends and neighbors. What happens if a friendly neighbor is attacked by a wicked dictator intent on destroying and expoliting? Do we defend them as well as ourselves? What happens when blocks of countries begin to form as happened during WWI, WWII, and the Cold War? Do we defend the entire block even if dictatorial oppressive regimes rule some of them? What if a friendly neighbor under treaty takes preemptive offensive action against a wicked dictatorship bent on evil toward them (e.g. Japan toward North Korea)? Do we help them? Oh so many questions... so many questions.

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Re: Just War Theory

#3

Post by topic » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:22 am

Gman,

It looks ok, but i do feel you need to ensure that people do not get confused with milhemet mitzvah (commanded wars) by God and how these could be construde as kedushah (holiness of war) you have not defined the differance. I referance this in regards to the wars (milhemet mitzvah) of Joshua as an example.When Joshua was told to go into the "promised land" God made it very clear that it was to be a holy land. God shows the significance of this when Joshua is told to remove his sandles as Moses was commanded to do also before he went to fight the Pharaoh -- the referance is no accident.The profound statement of the sandles in Joshua is that all the tribes that lived there where aware of what happened in Egypt yet would not give to God what was his to take,and God permitted Joshua to do what he did to cleanse the lands.These acts showed not only Gods goodnesss ( which you highlight ) but also his Sovereignty and Authority ( which i feel many secular people find hard to fathom and accept). I like how you showed very "to the point" milhemet reshut (permitted wars) with King David, and the consequance of such acts.If anything it is a piognant warning that could be highlighted even more.

1.Just cause. All aggression is condemned; only defensive war is legitimate.

What aggression do you mean -- direct, infered, or both ?? I believe that you should expand on this.i.e. When Germany attacked France and then said it was going to go into Poland, the British Goverment stated that if the Germans did indeed enter Poland they (the British) would declare war. Although the aggression was NOT direct, the act on Poland was taken as 'infered" aggression and thus validated Britians act to war.


Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7).

i find this dificult to accept.I propose that when God said he put goverments in place, it was because he autherized them to follow his authority and guidance.If however those goverments do not follow Gods authority and guidance, then you have every right not to follow that goverment, and if required oppose them either passively or aggressivly -- for who is the greater - the kings of the lands or God ? Whether you do it passively or aggressivly, or one before the other, each individual would need to consult God. By the definition you have given those Germans who opposed the Nazi regime went against Gods' command, either passively as Schindler did or aggressivly as the resistance did.
In more modern times what about Abu Ghraib or the use of Torture on the premise "that if it saved one life it is worth it"??Condoned by the Americian Goverment but clearly not by the Americian people!

In finishing i have to say i sincerly applaud what you guys are doing on this site. It is what attracted me to the forum

peace

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Re: Just War Theory

#4

Post by Gman » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:04 pm

ageofknowledge wrote:The article makes some very good points. But then we see that we have friends and neighbors. What happens if a friendly neighbor is attacked by a wicked dictator intent on destroying and expoliting? Do we defend them as well as ourselves? What happens when blocks of countries begin to form as happened during WWI, WWII, and the Cold War? Do we defend the entire block even if dictatorial oppressive regimes rule some of them? What if a friendly neighbor under treaty takes preemptive offensive action against a wicked dictatorship bent on evil toward them (e.g. Japan toward North Korea)? Do we help them? Oh so many questions... so many questions.
Good point... I believe the creation of the U.N. was to thwart all of this. Does it work? It's hard to tell, while I can see it's effectiveness in some areas, I think 80 percent of the time they usually vote against U.S. policies. And then there is Israel.

I think the other part of the equation here is where does this all fit with God? It seems like we need God's blessings to really make it "just" in some sense. How that all fits here I'm really not sure. I would argue, however, that we have the basic framework to build from.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Just War Theory

#5

Post by Gman » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:28 pm

topic wrote:Gman,

It looks ok, but i do feel you need to ensure that people do not get confused with milhemet mitzvah (commanded wars) by God and how these could be construde as kedushah (holiness of war) you have not defined the differance. I referance this in regards to the wars (milhemet mitzvah) of Joshua as an example.When Joshua was told to go into the "promised land" God made it very clear that it was to be a holy land. God shows the significance of this when Joshua is told to remove his sandles as Moses was commanded to do also before he went to fight the Pharaoh -- the referance is no accident.The profound statement of the sandles in Joshua is that all the tribes that lived there where aware of what happened in Egypt yet would not give to God what was his to take,and God permitted Joshua to do what he did to cleanse the lands.These acts showed not only Gods goodnesss ( which you highlight ) but also his Sovereignty and Authority ( which i feel many secular people find hard to fathom and accept). I like how you showed very "to the point" milhemet reshut (permitted wars) with King David, and the consequance of such acts.If anything it is a piognant warning that could be highlighted even more.
First Topic, I think you have brought up some interesting points. I do believe however I alluded to it, that being the holy land being set for the Jews, but probably not to the detail you have provided. I'm not familiar with the terms "milhemet mitzvah" and "milhemet reshut" and their significances. I think the intention here was to only bring up certain points of the "just war" and skip some of the "other" details.

Thank you...
topic wrote:1.Just cause. All aggression is condemned; only defensive war is legitimate.

What aggression do you mean -- direct, infered, or both ?? I believe that you should expand on this.i.e. When Germany attacked France and then said it was going to go into Poland, the British Goverment stated that if the Germans did indeed enter Poland they (the British) would declare war. Although the aggression was NOT direct, the act on Poland was taken as 'infered" aggression and thus validated Britians act to war.
I would say both here.. The world then was broken up between the Axis (Germany, Italy, and Japan) and the Allies back then, so aggression was considered a joint effort, if you will, and not simply nation against nation. These boundaries were already set before the Germans entered Poland, thus the Allies had to respond, albeit too late perhaps..
topic wrote:Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7).

i find this dificult to accept.I propose that when God said he put goverments in place, it was because he autherized them to follow his authority and guidance.If however those goverments do not follow Gods authority and guidance, then you have every right not to follow that goverment, and if required oppose them either passively or aggressivly -- for who is the greater - the kings of the lands or God ? Whether you do it passively or aggressivly, or one before the other, each individual would need to consult God. By the definition you have given those Germans who opposed the Nazi regime went against Gods' command, either passively as Schindler did or aggressivly as the resistance did.
In more modern times what about Abu Ghraib or the use of Torture on the premise "that if it saved one life it is worth it"??Condoned by the Americian Goverment but clearly not by the Americian people!
Yes, good point... I did not expound on this much. This is difficult so I can't give a clear answer here... I could say, however, that this same predicament was also clearly set between the Romans and the Jews during their time as well. Almost like our current modern day separation between church and state. Although Christ did not clearly object to Roman occupation, he did not condone it either.. The Jews pretty much hated their captors, but still functioned as God loving souls in spite of this.

To be honest with you, I really don't know where to draw the line here, but I can see the separation between church and state. I guess if we looked back far enough in the Bible there was no real distinction either (between church and state).. It's hard to tell just who is under authority here. God or man??
topic wrote:In finishing i have to say i sincerly applaud what you guys are doing on this site. It is what attracted me to the forum

peace
Thanks topic, and thanks for the input!
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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