Harry OK wrote:
If God blesses the state, then Obama coming into power must have been God's Will.
Fortunately nothing happens without Divine consent...I don't care for Obama, but I respect that God has, in the least, allowed him to be in power. I reserve the right to delight in everything (if anything) that goes wrong during his time.
Gman, I know you don't respect me for this (and more so for holding mostly Adventist beliefs) and put on me the cape of "advancing homosexuality". I also know you won't believe it when I say I don't condone homosexuality, but that I see a bigger picture in pushing laws of the nature of Prop. 8. It is a personal belief and with it am likely on the fringe of Adventist belief on the matter so please no one lump my belief on this as Adventist thinking.
Gman wrote:Do any of our laws stop sin or corruption??? What I'm talking about here is endorsement. You seem to want to endorse or legitimize homosexual behavior. Unlike you I don't.
No...unfortunately they don't. I don't want to legitimize homosexuality...society already has done that on the whole. I just don't see how a "marriage" will make it any bigger than it already is.
Gman wrote:Then go and endorse it then.
Fact remains, disallowing "marriage" will not reduce health risks to homosexuals or heterosexuals.
Gman wrote:So you are saying the God doesn't bless the state? Maybe we should all sing, “God don't bless America.”
Out of context. Since when does the State's endorsement = God's? The U.S. didn't turn into a Theocracy without me knowing did it?
Gman wrote:Don't give me that… You endorse it.
Believe what you may, I just don't see the point of being petty.
Gman wrote:Perhaps fornication should too… Why not? Is fornication good for society?
You tell me. Since there isn't a Prop. stating so through legislation, one must assume society thinks it's ok.
Gman wrote:Again you are confused… The Sabbath was not a moral law. The Sabbath was ceremonial law.. You do know the difference don't you?
I do...hardly the point. Point being Saturday (or Sunday for that matter) legislation through the State would be a religious law being forced on society where all of society is not of the same religious belief system. Wouldn't you oppose such a law? I would regardless of my religious beliefs! Don't we (those of us married) need a license to marry? Who gives those licences and under who's authority? Does a religious hetero couple need a State endorsed licence to be married in God's eyes? Likewise a marriage licence from the State does not necessarily imply God's blessing on a marriage. One doesn't endorse the other.
God never legitimizes a homosexual "marriage" nor does He legitimize ALL actions within a hetero marriage. In other words, just because a man and woman are married, doesn't make everything they do within that marriage blessed by God.
Is it the close relationship between two like-gendered individuals that we as a society abhor or the intimate (sexual) relationship we abhor? Which is it for God? Is it the sex or the love? I'm against the sexual connection, but I'm not against same-sex love.
So a State "endorsed marriage" between homosexuals hardly endorses homosexual sex any more than a State endorsed marriage between heterosexuals endorses sodomy.
Gman wrote:Is this really what the Adventist believe? Boy, you have a lot to learn.
Is what an Adventist belief? I think most, if not all, Adventists would oppose a State law of any worship day including Saturday...what are you offering as needed learning on this? I'm confused.
Gman wrote:Can't prove that homosexuality is good for society huh? So you endorse it? Why? Do you wish to protect or harm society?
No, I can't prove it...never set out to do such. I just don't feel same-sex marriage endorses homosexuality in light of the point just prior to the above. Same-sex marriage does not harm society in the least if society is not willing to "protect" itself from homosexuals! If society felt homosexuality was a harm, society would outlaw BEING and/or going through the motions of homosexuality. Much like society hasn't outlawed BEING cleptomaniac...but the acts of cleptomania.
I see it like this: A certain society has laws, none of which make stealing unlawful...yet the society, instead of making stealing unlawful, are making laws that keep thieves, crooks, and cleptomaniacs from creating a State sanctioned club of TCC...Theives, Crooks and Clepto's...because stealing is not good for society.
Gman wrote:Again.. You missed the point. So under your logic we should eliminate all stop signs because there will always be people that run by them anyways… So why have them?? Why don't we just eliminate all laws while we are at it as well?
No, I think you're misunderstanding. Stop signs protect people from crashing into each other at intersections. Keeping homosexuals from marrying will not keep the harm homosexuality does to society from harming society.
Gman wrote:We all deserve death for being sinners… That's not the point of the law.. Under the law we should all be dead.
I gather we possibly agree here.
Gman wrote:How could homosexuality kill itself off? Everyone is endorsing it… And according to you it's an ok practice to do.
In a true community of true homosexuality...there would be no offspring thus killing itself off. That's all I'm trying to say. Homosexuality will never cease to exist in a society mixed with both.
Gman wrote:The practice of homosexuality spreads diseases to society which can effect everyone… Have you read what I wrote before?
Yes...I agree. The diseases can spread to hetero society. No question.
So is it the marriage of homosexuals that is spreading the disease now or the acts of homosexual sex?
Gman wrote:Baloney… There are numerous homosexuals who have come out the practice. In fact I know many people who have successfully abstained from having sex altogether. They made a conscience choice to do so.
...certainly...but are they not still homosexual? Much like the alcoholic that remains an alcoholic even if he/she abstains from drinking.
Can and has God healed a homosexual into a full-fledged heterosexual? Maybe. Can He? Yes. Does He wish that for homosexuals? I don't think so...otherwise He would change us all into non-sinners. I believe we all have our sins and we all fall into and out of sin daily. I wouldn't wish the "sin" of homosexuality because to me, it's a true state of being, a double-whammy so-to-speak, on them. Not only are they natural sinners, but their lust can't even be justified within a marriage as the Bible suggests! A homosexual cannot just change what they find attractive (the gender). Sure they can abstain from the acts, but is not the thought of lust, be it homo or hetero the same as having performed the act itself?
Gman wrote:Again.. Let's just destroy all the laws then. Who needs them anyway? Silly God, telling us what to do... How dare He.
Silly is as silly does...instead of making silly statements such as this, why not delve a little deeper into society's unwillingness to outlaw homosexuality if in fact is is so harmful to it? ...and I agree it is harmful.
It is not God's law in question here. God forbids homosexual acts and thus is justified in not blessing homosexual marriage. The State, on the other hand, has no moral leg to stand on when it resists outlawing that which is harmful to it's society...and worse yet, the society itself apparently refuses to make such an effort. What point is there in making a law that neither fixes the problem nor helps those affected by the problem?