The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

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The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#1

Post by Rich » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:51 pm


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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#2

Post by Cross.eyed » Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:15 am

It's a good read. Short, simple, and to the point but well loaded.
Humanism celebrates our "vapor" of a life but has no answer to the meaningful.

Without God, there is no hope for any type of future; no justice, a mere meaningless existance, no purpose etc.

I can applaud their effort to celebrate, but ultimately, celebrate what?

Thanks Rich, I like the way you have presented this particular article. :clap:

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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#3

Post by Screwtape » Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:14 pm

Good article, Rich.

One question, though. How would the theory of the muliverse or a universe that is ever created and destroyed fit in with you article. It seems to me that the atheist could easily argue from either of these two positions and effectively invalidate your argument.

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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#4

Post by Gman » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:53 pm

Screwtape wrote:Good article, Rich.

One question, though. How would the theory of the muliverse or a universe that is ever created and destroyed fit in with you article. It seems to me that the atheist could easily argue from either of these two positions and effectively invalidate your argument.
I would think it doesn't matter since God lives outside and probably throughout the universe(s)...
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Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#5

Post by Rich » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:11 am

If the multiverse theory were true, it would invalidate the argument. However, the multiverse is impossible over the entire period of eternity (which is what atheists would propose for the age of the "invisible" part of our universe - if such a thing exists at all). The problem for the multiverse theory is that our part of the multiverse has managed to make itself completely inaccessible to contraction and future expansion. If it were possible for one part of the multiverse to become thermodynamically dead, it would be expected to be possible for others. Even if entry into such a state is extremely unlikely, eternity is a very, very long time. Certainly by now (over all eternity), the entire multiverse would have entered into one of these thermodynamically dead zones. So, one would expect the entire multiverse to have suffered thermodynamic death by now. It hasn't, so either the multiverse is not eternal or doesn't exist. Either way, it points to God as Creator.

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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#6

Post by SaintConfused » Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:42 am

Cross.eyed wrote:Without God, there is no hope for any type of future; no justice, a mere meaningless existence, no purpose etc.
I disagree with the above statement.
Conservation law of matter, provides a universal 'meaning'/'purpose'. It might not be the expected one, it might not be the most exciting, but
it certainly serves for hope, meaning, and purpose (the universe doesn't follow a justice system, so this is why I didn't apply it with the others).
There are plentiful other independent 'parts' within nature that provide meaning, hope, and purpose for humanity. The water cycle provides
'meaning'/'purpose' as well and it doesn't require a deity attachment such as 'Lady of the lake' or 'Poseidon'. Farming is an agricultural Terran
species 'meaning'/'purpose' and it simply requires humanity knowing a certain amount about their environment including during rough seasons.
Volcanoes, provide life and take it with a 'meaning' / 'purpose' of repeated carbon-dioxide emissions (keeping the planet warm & the atmosphere
strong). Supernovae gives more chemical elements too other stars, preserving the plasma activity within the universe, another 'meaning'/'purpose'
with distant planetary systems and whatever life exists therein. Medical Technology helps our biological systems as another vital part of any
culture or populated area. There is another 'meaning'/'purpose'. Reproductive System(s) preserves the attributes of parents for children,
and sexual evolution is more in favor then asexual for a majority of species. The 'meaning'/'purpose' lies within the name, the ability to
reproduce. etc.
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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#7

Post by cslewislover » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:25 am

SaintConfused wrote:
Cross.eyed wrote:Without God, there is no hope for any type of future; no justice, a mere meaningless existence, no purpose etc.
I disagree with the above statement.
Conservation law of matter, provides a universal 'meaning'/'purpose'. It might not be the expected one, it might not be the most exciting, but
it certainly serves for hope, meaning, and purpose (the universe doesn't follow a justice system, so this is why I didn't apply it with the others).
There are plentiful other independent 'parts' within nature that provide meaning, hope, and purpose for humanity. The water cycle provides
'meaning'/'purpose' as well and it doesn't require a deity attachment such as 'Lady of the lake' or 'Poseidon'. Farming is an agricultural Terran
species 'meaning'/'purpose' and it simply requires humanity knowing a certain amount about their environment including during rough seasons.
Volcanoes, provide life and take it with a 'meaning' / 'purpose' of repeated carbon-dioxide emissions (keeping the planet warm & the atmosphere
strong). Supernovae gives more chemical elements too other stars, preserving the plasma activity within the universe, another 'meaning'/'purpose'
with distant planetary systems and whatever life exists therein. Medical Technology helps our biological systems as another vital part of any
culture or populated area. There is another 'meaning'/'purpose'. Reproductive System(s) preserves the attributes of parents for children,
and sexual evolution is more in favor then asexual for a majority of species. The 'meaning'/'purpose' lies within the name, the ability to
reproduce. etc.
Well this is just odd, sc. Are you trying to be funny? I don't get the impression you are. All these things you're talking about are just cold things, even when talking about reproduction in the way you do. If there is no meaning and hope in life, from a human's heart or soul perspective, then people start killing themselves, not reproducing.
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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#8

Post by SaintConfused » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:40 am

Are you trying to be funny?
I can't even afford a clown costume, so nope.
All these things you're talking about are just cold things.
Cold has value, purpose, meaning as well. For instance, without winter, certain plants wouldn't bloom later on after that period of reduced heat.
even when talking about reproduction in the way you do.
I apologize, I didn't mean too harm you're perspective in any way.
If there is no meaning and hope in life, from a human's heart or soul perspective, then people start killing themselves, not reproducing.
This is why I wouldn't mind having an 'animal' body or manifestation, it's a more comforting perspective than that of a human. Suicide takes
several factors before it's made into an action, and sometimes none at all (depending on the circumstances). Disunity (divorce, unhealthy relationships,
racial-based-war, etc.) is a common theme for the less tolerant of the populace such as the Skin Heads or KKK. Paranoia (fear of death, fear of enemies, fear of loss, etc.) easily simplifies the 'logic' of humanity, 'animals' don't concern themselves with such things. Irresponsibility (family, work, school, etc.) collides with personal preference and leads to suicide as well. The absence of God can just as easily be blamed for the failure for one to reproduce as their eventual suicide do too feeling a lack of affirmed 'value' by others pessimistic input. Meaning and purpose aren't strings to cut or pull, and God being omnipresent (both 'below', above, and within humanity) wouldn't understand any more than we do, with the absence of all-knowledge, it is below meaningful, valuable, purposeful, justice and above them all at the same time. Having to be both absolute (without meaning, purpose, value,
justice
) & non-absolute (with meaning, purpose, value, justice, provided by his 'higher' absolute 'person'). This is why Jesus says none is
good, except the Father, he can't be 'good' with a non-absolute justice and lack of knowledge that the Father has. I'm not pro- or anti-Trinity,
but I hope that helps you understanding what I'm saying here. There is hope, even though I feel hopeless because of Jesus' atonement for my 'sins'.
~SC
You were the Chosen One! It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!~Obi-Wan Kenobi.

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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#9

Post by cslewislover » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:13 pm

. . . ok. My brain is both freaked and sad. At the end you said you feel hopeless. Remember, Jesus said that when you see him, you see the father (John14:8-11, see also 21:28-29). What is your belief about Jesus?
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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#10

Post by SaintConfused » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:01 pm

My brain is both freaked and sad.
and my stomach is violating virtue against my whole self/being. :(
At the end you said you feel hopeless.
That's right, in the particular focus that hope comes in a maintained body (h+
for example
) and not an 'image' going through oblivious crucifixion or worse.
Jesus said that when you see him, you see the father.
So the following do not apply. (I'm not trying to provoke an argument here, just would
like to be reassured about any misconceptions I may be having so I can eliminate them).
Numbers 3:19 God is not a man that he should lie;neither the son of a man that he should repent.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not.
Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God;there is none else beside him.
Deuteronomy 4:39 The LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.
Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me.
Isaiah 43:10 I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 44:8 Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isaiah 45:5-6 I am the Lord, and there is none else,there is no God beside me.
Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is none else: I am God, and there is none like me. Check.
What is your belief about Jesus?
I don't understand you're question enough to answer, I have opinions about him, not sure what you mean by saying 'belief' though.~SC
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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#11

Post by cslewislover » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:13 pm

SaintConfused wrote:
My brain is both freaked and sad.
and my stomach is violating virtue against my whole self/being. :(
At the end you said you feel hopeless.
That's right, in the particular focus that hope comes in a maintained body (h+


:? :lol: :crying: y:-/

What is your belief about Jesus?

I don't understand you're question enough to answer, I have opinions about him, not sure what you mean by saying 'belief' though.~SC


You really should read that new Trinity thread and comment on that there. Despite your verses, there's plenty of reason to believe that God manifests Himself as the Father, Son, and Holy spirit (whether you want to call it the "trinity" or not). All those manifestations of the one creator God are discussed in the New Testament (including John saying that Jesus was from the beginning, and creator). So do you believe the whole NT is false? You would pretty much have to, since it's about Jesus being in the Father and doing the work of Him, and the Holy Spirit doing works from the Father too. If you simply do not believe the teachings of the NT, you should say so.
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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#12

Post by SaintConfused » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:48 pm

I was speaking of gluttony and lust, when referring to the condition of my stomach compared too the whole of my entire body.
h+ is Transhumanism, if you didn't know.
===================================
Despite your verses, there's plenty of reason to believe that God manifests Himself
as the Father, Son, and Holy spirit (whether you want to call it the 'trinity' or not).
I haven't claimed the verses as my own property. I'm neither Moses, Malachi, Isaiah, or God. I'm not denying any reasoning to be done
for God being a Trinity, it is made quiet clear by both Judaism and the Tanakh that God is one and just that. I'm sorry for offending you,
that wasn't my goal.
All those manifestations of the one creator God are discussed in the NT (including John saying that Jesus was from the beginning, and creator).
OK, I can go with that. It still doesn't support a co-equal Trinity, or the one God allowing Jesus to be part of him. So John calls Jesus creator,
who in turn, by Paul, says that he will be judged by The Father, makes perfectly-logical-rational-sense too me (in a confusing way).
Rev 3:11-12 Behold, I (Jesus) come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
1 Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God)
that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1 Tim 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Heb 1:4-6 (Jesus)Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which
of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
So do you believe the whole NT is false?
Did I say it was wholly false? no. Please don't put words in my mouth.
You would pretty much have to, since it's about Jesus being in the Father and doing the work of Him, and the Holy Spirit doing works from the Father too.
OK then, anything else I 'have to' do? Jesus admits none (including The Spirit and himself) knows more than the Father, there isn't a co-equal relationship if we accept what he says and not what we mentally want him to say. Mark 13:26-27,32 And then shall they see the Son of man coming
in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost
part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither
the Son, but the Father
. So two 'persons' are working for 'The Father' one God, this does not make the Trinity evident within God's Word.
If you simply do not believe the teachings of the NT, you should say so.
All I said is I'm neither for or against the Trinity doctrine, God's Word does not teach of himself being composed of more than one 'person'.

What's with the hostile reaction all of a sudden? if you're comfortable with the Trinity
that's fine with me, I'm not taking away you're rights to believe or follow such.
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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#13

Post by cslewislover » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:32 pm

Maybe I was being short, SC, but I wasn't being hostile. I know it can sound like that sometimes. I guess I gave those verses, and you didn't address them. It seems that your reasoning to deny Jesus' diety doesn't take the whole bible into account - all the verses that deal with this subject - but just the ones that support your view. So yeah, I wasn't happy with that. I don't know the theology of this actually, but Jesus as a man was not yet fully glorified while here on earth, so there are verses that are going to reflect that as well (see John 17:5). Anyway, I wasn't being hostile, just frustrated.

No, I didn't know what h+ meant.

And you still haven't gone to the trinity thread. There's not much point in just telling me all the verses you want to use, since it would be good for you to answer the evidence on that thread. Which is just beginning, actually. As for myself, ever since I started reading the bible I could see, when you take all of God's word together, that God is manifested in three ways (I became a Christian as an adult - I wasn't raised that way). It's written all over the place. I already gave three verses, and I know that's not much or anything, but I'm not about to get into a big debate on the trinity, or the fact that Jesus himself is the same God as the God of Israel. Really, why don't you go to that thread and deal with things there? If you could answer to the data there, I'm sure people would be interested.
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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#14

Post by SaintConfused » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:07 pm

I guess I gave those verses, and you didn't address them.
I only mentioned 'The Father' and 'The Son' as examples of what I was trying to elaborate on because I disagreed with what was said by Cross.eyed.
I had no original intent on dragging the trinity into this (I'd still like to review the page given by Rich in the OP).
It seems that your reasoning to deny Jesus' diety doesn't take the whole bible into account.
Covering Gen to Rev all for one post seems a bit unnecessary.
just the ones that support your view.
Sorry my view bothers you.
I don't know the theology of this actually, but Jesus as a man was not yet fully glorified while here on earth, so there are verses that are going to reflect that as well.
I don't see how a glorification or ascension would automatically make a person of God, including Jesus. Elijah had ascended,
yet he's not part of the Trinity. Don't let my opinion get the best of you, I'm just a confused human and nothing special.
you still haven't gone to the trinity thread.
I don't want to be a nuisance.
I'm not about to get into a big debate on the trinity, or the fact that Jesus himself is the same God as the God of Israel.

I apologize for that, I was just trying to provide something that is consistent with the God and Science mutual relationship at the same time elaborating
on 'meaning', 'purpose', and 'value' seeing as how you replied too my disagreement about the statement given by Cross.eyed. I don't find this to be
an appropriate place for debating such, even though it is my fault that it came along. Very sorry csl (and Rich).
why don't you go to that thread and deal with things there?
I'm just an amateur, not even in college.
If you could answer to the data there, I'm sure people would be interested.
Answering isn't the problem, answering properly/right/correctly takes time for me.
~SC
You were the Chosen One! It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!~Obi-Wan Kenobi.

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Re: The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...

#15

Post by cslewislover » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:29 pm

SaintConfused wrote:
I guess I gave those verses, and you didn't address them.
I only mentioned 'The Father' and 'The Son' as examples of what I was trying to elaborate on because I disagreed with what was said by Cross.eyed.
OK, it just seems that when Jesus is saying that when you see him, you see the Father, that that's significant. And Thomas calls Jesus God. And he's not the first or only one.
It seems that your reasoning to deny Jesus' diety doesn't take the whole bible into account.
Covering Gen to Rev all for one post seems a bit unnecessary.
And I wouldn't expect you to. My point was, when you read the bible from cover to cover, you get impressions of God's character and God's truth that you might not get from just doing word searches and such. I don't know how you study God's word, I was just saying.
just the ones that support your view.
Sorry my view bothers you.
It's not your view that bothers me, but the information provided to support your view. I'm willing to look at both sides of debate to see what the best answer is, but I need to feel that the information is balanced.
I don't know the theology of this actually, but Jesus as a man was not yet fully glorified while here on earth, so there are verses that are going to reflect that as well.
I don't see how glorification or ascension would automatically make a person of God, including Jesus. Elijah had ascended, yet he's not part of the Trinity. Don't let my opinion get the best of you, I'm just a confused human and nothing special.
Then you're not reading the whole verse. Jesus says "glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." This isn't just a person ascending or being glorified.
If you could answer to the data there, I'm sure people would be interested.
I'm just an amateur, not even in college.

Answering isn't the problem, answering properly/right/correctly takes time for me.
~SC
OK. Before, you got upset that I was putting words in your mouth, about not believing all of the NT, but I asked about it. I would still be interested in what you think of Jesus - is he a saviour or not - and whatever else you think. There is very standard church doctrine and theology on who Jesus is. How do your views differ from basic doctrine? Someone asked Karl Barth once what was the most important thing in the bible, or the most important doctrine, and surprisingly he answered using a children's song: "Jesus loves me, this I know, 'cause the bible tells me so." What does this love mean? How does it manifest itself?
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