A brick wall.

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bippy123
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Re: A brick wall.

#31

Post by bippy123 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:24 am

KMan87 wrote:" As I have already mentioned, I did not find the multiverse alternative very helpful. The postulation of multiple universes, I maintained, is a truly desperate alternative. If the existence of one universe requires an explanation, multiple universes require a much bigger explanation: the problem is increased by a factor of whatever the total number of universes is. It seems a little like the case of a schoolboy whose teacher doesn't believe his dog ate his homework, so he replaces the first version with a story that a pack of dogs--too many to count--ate his homework. "

--Anthony Flew, "There is a God", Chapter 8


"What is especially important here is the fact that the existence of the multiverse does not explain the origin of the laws of nature. Martin Rees suggests that the existence of different universes with their own laws raises the question of the laws governing the entire multiverse..."

"So multiverse or not, we still have to come to terms with the origin of the laws of nature. And the only viable explanation here is the divine mind."

Both quotes from " There is a God", I am reading it on my Kindle as I type so I don't have page numbers.
KMAN, in actuality what you just posited is pure common sense, but as you can see these secular scientists will jump through hoops and dodge missiles to avoid the most simple and common sensical explanation for it all, that the universe was created by a divine mind.

And Antony Flew understood it and to his credit wasn't afraid to philosophically follow the evidence to where it lead him and it lead him to the concept of God which for him was on pure evidence with no faith required.

Richard Conn Henry another former atheist who came to believe in the existence of a creator from the scientific evidence alone had this to say in his paper published in nature in 2005

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intellig ... -designer/

“The ultimate cause of atheism, Newton asserted, is ‘this notion of bodies having, as it were, a complete, absolute and independent reality in themselves.’”

The 1925 discovery of quantum mechanics solved the problem of the Universe’s nature. Bright physicists were again led to believe the unbelievable — this time, that the Universe is mental.

According to Sir James Jeans: “the stream of knowledge is heading towards a non-mechanical reality; the Universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter…we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter.”
….
The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual.

Richard Conn Henry
The Mental Universe: Nature Volume 436


To be fair, Henry is NOT an ID proponent, but some of his further comments in connection with his Nature essay are astonishing. Is Henry arguing that one of the main pillars of atheism has been taken away by quantum mechanics? Is he saying that quantum mechanics has shown that there are no mind-independent realities, therefore the cure for atheism (to paraphrase Newton) has been found?

Now we are beginning to see that quantum mechanics might actually exclude any possibility of mind-independent reality….

Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the illusion of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism.

Richard Conn Henry and Stephen R. Palmquist
Journal of Scientific Exploration Issue 21-3

In his Gifford lectures, very shortly after the 1925 discovery of quantum mechanics, Arthur Stanley Eddington (who immediately quantum mechanics was discovered realized that this meant that the universe was purely mental, and that indeed there was no such thing as “physical”) said “it is difficult for the matter-of-fact physicist to accept the view that the substratum of everything is of mental character.” What an understatement! On this fundamental topic, physicists are mostly terrified wimps.

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Re: A brick wall.

#32

Post by KMan87 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:12 am

Very interesting Bippy123. I had never heard of him, I will have to check out that article in Nature.

I remember when I was an undergraduate student in business. I had to take an introduction to physics course which I mostly didn't care about (I was more interested in learning how to make money). However, one experiment stuck with me. I believe it is called the double slit experiment, and it is very interesting.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum ... 368495/pg1

Here is a very interesting article to go along with Blippys comment on Prof. Richard Conn Henry.

http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/spooky.html

I'm not sure what to think of the idea that the universe is mental, but it does lend support to a divine creator.

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Re: A brick wall.

#33

Post by neo-x » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:08 pm

I don't know about you guys but I think the multiverse makes the most sense. :esmile:
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: A brick wall.

#34

Post by Byblos » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:39 am

neo-x wrote:I don't know about you guys but I think the multiverse makes the most sense. :esmile:
The more we dig into this reality of ours, the more complex it gets. And this is true from all sides, on all scales, astronomical (in the truest sense of the word), or at the quantum level. Every time we think we've finally figured things out and we have all the answers, it turns out there's a deeper reality we didn't account for. I swear you'd think some super-intelligence is just toying with us to see how 'smart' we think we can get. It's really a fun game! :mrgreen:
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Re: A brick wall.

#35

Post by RickD » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:36 am

Isn't it understood that time came into existence with the beginning of the universe? If multiverses do/did exist, how would that change the belief about time in that regard?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: A brick wall.

#36

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:31 pm

RickD wrote:Isn't it understood that time came into existence with the beginning of the universe? If multiverses do/did exist, how would that change the belief about time in that regard?
People posting in this very bizarre thread may want to re-read Genesis 1:1. Read what it says and think about it. Note that it doesn't say ''In the beginning God chose this universe out of many.''

Have you all lost your marbles? y@-)

FL :D
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: A brick wall.

#37

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:38 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
RickD wrote:Isn't it understood that time came into existence with the beginning of the universe? If multiverses do/did exist, how would that change the belief about time in that regard?
People posting in this very bizarre thread may want to re-read Genesis 1:1. Read what it says and think about it. Note that it doesn't say ''In the beginning God chose this universe out of many.''

Have you all lost your marbles? y@-)

FL :D

In the beginning. In the beginning of what? It leaves a lot open to interpretation.

God made the HEAVENS and the Earth. What are the heavens? open to interpretation.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: A brick wall.

#38

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:49 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:In the beginning. In the beginning of what? It leaves a lot open to interpretation.
:roll: :shakehead:

You should just chuck out your Bible, Dan. There is no way you can know for sure what it says, as you've just proven.

Better yet, why not just burn your Bibles? You could invite a few friends over, open some cool drinks, get some steaks and roast them over your burning Bibles!

FL :D
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: A brick wall.

#39

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:55 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:In the beginning. In the beginning of what? It leaves a lot open to interpretation.
:roll: :shakehead:

You should just chuck out your Bible, Dan. There is no way you can know for sure what it says, as you've just proven.

Better yet, why not just burn your Bibles? You could invite a few friends over, open some cool drinks, get some steaks and roast them over your burning Bibles!

FL :D
Lol typical response.

Do you know why it is open to interpretation............................. because it is not an important part of God's message.

The intended message was God's and our place in creation, that's it, anything other than that is not important.

So no I don't have to burn my Bible, your response is just ignorant.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: A brick wall.

#40

Post by Seraph » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:14 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
RickD wrote:Isn't it understood that time came into existence with the beginning of the universe? If multiverses do/did exist, how would that change the belief about time in that regard?
People posting in this very bizarre thread may want to re-read Genesis 1:1. Read what it says and think about it. Note that it doesn't say ''In the beginning God chose this universe out of many.''

Have you all lost your marbles? y@-)

FL :D
1 Thessalonians 5:21 says "Test everything, hold on to the good". Does God want us to succumb to a single paradigm and never explore outside of its boundaries? I don't personally think so. If something is a lie, it shouldn't stand up under scrutiny.
I am committed to belief in God, as the most morally demanding, psychologically enriching, intellectually satisfying and imaginatively fruitful hypothesis about the ultimate nature of reality known to me - Keith Ward

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Re: A brick wall.

#41

Post by Silvertusk » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:30 am

Ok here is were I am.

I am still not clear on a few things but I am getting slowly back on track. I want to publicly thank Byblos, BW, Rick, Neo, Seraph, Dan, Bippy, Kman. Seraph and Hana for their kind responses and PMs.

The problem I have is that I did not come to faith through any sudden revelation of the Holy Spirit. I was not in a desperate situation and then suddenly saved by Jesus. I came to faith through science. And I admit that is a rocky road. I wish I could have the deep assurance that some of you have. I wish I could feel the inner peace and inner witness of the Holy Spirit. But the fact is I do not. Does that mean I am a Christian? I do not know. I want it all to be true. I do not want the alternative to it not being true. But when something comes along and it does not fit in with the current apologetic thinking of the time - I struggle. I did with evolution. For me accepting the Bible at its word is not enough - my faith is not that strong. This is why I asked at the beginning for prayer for a real encounter with Jesus so I can have that deep inner peace and assurance and then the rest I will just have to wait till I see him for answers.

Read in that what you will. Call me a fake Christian if you want if you feel it is justified. But the fact is I have a deep overwhelming love for Jesus and God but my nature does not permit me to follow something that does not exist. Which is why I struggle so much at times. If the worst happened and I fell away it will be with great remorse as if I had lost my dearest friend.

So once again thank you for you responses. And I humbly request that you remember me in your prayers still.

Silvertusk.

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Re: A brick wall.

#42

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:30 am

Hey Silver

We all have our walks and they are all different.

I have a similar story with the intellectual faith in the beginning, but I urge you to explore love and what it means too love and how that relates to God because love is by far the greatest gift we have been given. Open your heart to God through prayer and meditation, rely on him totally in faith and you will find your peace in him. I know it all sounds like fluff but I am serious, once you understand what it means to love and it is written on your heart nothing can shake that foundation.

Don't stress out, learning takes time, be content with where your at, talk to God about your worries all of the day and give them up to him.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: A brick wall.

#43

Post by Silvertusk » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:41 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Hey Silver

We all have our walks and they are all different.

I have a similar story with the intellectual faith in the beginning, but I urge you to explore love and what it means too love and how that relates to God because love is by far the greatest gift we have been given. Open your heart to God through prayer and meditation, rely on him totally in faith and you will find your peace in him. I know it all sounds like fluff but I am serious, once you understand what it means to love and it is written on your heart nothing can shake that foundation.

Don't stress out, learning takes time, be content with where your at, talk to God about your worries all of the day and give them up to him.

You are right Dan.
Ironically I know more about the general theology and apologetics of Christianity than most people at my church. I am frequently asked to do sermons and lead the whole service. I run a Defenders home group about apologetics. Yet it turns out that maybe I am possibly the least mature Christian of everyone. I know I need to spend more time with just God and the Word. I am off to Australia next week (Perth) for a well timed holiday, I am hoping to get an epihany there and reevaluate everything - but also try and spend more time with just God.

Silvertusk.

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Re: A brick wall.

#44

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:50 am

Enjoy my homeland, I have never been to Perth but I have heard good things, I am from Victoria.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: A brick wall.

#45

Post by Silvertusk » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:20 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Enjoy my homeland, I have never been to Perth but I have heard good things, I am from Victoria.
Will do.

We are staying with family and they live on the beach. And they have a swimming pool. Can't wait.

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