A brick wall.

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Silvertusk
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A brick wall.

#1

Post by Silvertusk » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:23 am

Hi Guys.
I am in a bit of trouble spiritually. I have weathered doubts before but this is a big one for me. It all comes down to the latest scientific discovery on inflation. I have been reading a lot of this and it all seems to point to a multiverse and no one is telling me anything different. If it is a multiverse that we live in then as far as I can see that removes the need of a creator altogether. I just can't see where God would fit in with that concept. Also even if the BVG theorem states that multiverses have a beginning - I have a feeling that it wont be long before they discover something that falsifies that as well. You know what I am so tied of weathering these doubts. I am so tired of the arguments, debates and guessing. I just can't cope with all this along with other things going on in my life at the moment. This latest storm has brought me closer to the possibility that God does not exist at all than any other thing so far and I need help. I feel like I am wondering in a no mans land at the moment. Maybe it is because I can't think straight or that I am being silly - but like I said I am tired.

Please could you pray for me to have a real experience with God. Please pray that I can know God and Jesus without science and that all that Science will do for me is confirm what I already deeply know is true. Please pray for me to have a real encounter with Jesus that will bring me peace.

Thank you.

Silvertusk.

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Re: A brick wall.

#2

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:48 am

Are you serious?! You lead Bible studies one day and end up doubting God the next because of some silly man-made theory?

You don't really need prayer. You mostly need a good whack on the side of your head.

FL :shakehead:
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Silvertusk
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Re: A brick wall.

#3

Post by Silvertusk » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:51 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Are you serious?! You lead Bible studies one day and end up doubting God the next because of some silly man-made theory?

You don't really need prayer. You mostly need a good whack on the side of your head.

FL :shakehead:

You are not helping.

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Re: A brick wall.

#4

Post by neo-x » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:06 am

silver, please check your pm!
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: A brick wall.

#5

Post by Byblos » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:09 am

Silvertusk wrote:Hi Guys.
I am in a bit of trouble spiritually. I have weathered doubts before but this is a big one for me. It all comes down to the latest scientific discovery on inflation. I have been reading a lot of this and it all seems to point to a multiverse and no one is telling me anything different. If it is a multiverse that we live in then as far as I can see that removes the need of a creator altogether. I just can't see where God would fit in with that concept. Also even if the BVG theorem states that multiverses have a beginning - I have a feeling that it wont be long before they discover something that falsifies that as well. You know what I am so tied of weathering these doubts. I am so tired of the arguments, debates and guessing. I just can't cope with all this along with other things going on in my life at the moment. This latest storm has brought me closer to the possibility that God does not exist at all than any other thing so far and I need help. I feel like I am wondering in a no mans land at the moment. Maybe it is because I can't think straight or that I am being silly - but like I said I am tired.

Please could you pray for me to have a real experience with God. Please pray that I can know God and Jesus without science and that all that Science will do for me is confirm what I already deeply know is true. Please pray for me to have a real encounter with Jesus that will bring me peace.

Thank you.

Silvertusk.
Hi Silver,

I am planning on responding to your questions in the other thread in as much detail as I can muster but please do know that the idea of a multiverse or even an infinite universe is nothing new and is no threat to God whatsoever. In fact, the very foundation of Thomas Aquinas' five ways for the existence of God is predicated on the assumption that the universe is eternal in the past. Think about this for a second, this was more than 700 years ago and Aquinas' philosophy has stood the test of time until now and there's no indication that it won't in the future because it is based on sound metaphysical principles, not the science-du-jour.

But even in scientific terms, science itself disproves a past eternal multiverse, only a future eternal one is postulated. So a multiverse must also have a beginning (see my friend BVG).

Hold your horses, slow down, take a deep breath, and hold fast to your principles. Nothing's changed.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: A brick wall.

#6

Post by Seraph » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:23 am

I've stuggled with the same thing silver, thoughts of a multiverse possibly removing the need of a creator.

Though I'm confused, why does a recent observation about expansion in this universe suggest that there are others?
I am committed to belief in God, as the most morally demanding, psychologically enriching, intellectually satisfying and imaginatively fruitful hypothesis about the ultimate nature of reality known to me - Keith Ward

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Re: A brick wall.

#7

Post by Seraph » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:30 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Are you serious?! You lead Bible studies one day and end up doubting God the next because of some silly man-made theory?

You don't really need prayer. You mostly need a good whack on the side of your head.

FL :shakehead:
Is this not a site called God and Science? Maybe it ought to be called God and silly man made theories?
I am committed to belief in God, as the most morally demanding, psychologically enriching, intellectually satisfying and imaginatively fruitful hypothesis about the ultimate nature of reality known to me - Keith Ward

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Re: A brick wall.

#8

Post by Byblos » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:34 am

Seraph wrote:I've stuggled with the same thing silver, thoughts of a multiverse possibly removing the need of a creator.

Though I'm confused, why does a recent observation about expansion in this universe suggest that there are others?
Because the inflationary theory almost certainly implies a multiverse (potentially).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: A brick wall.

#9

Post by B. W. » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:06 am

Silvertusk wrote:Hi Guys.
I am in a bit of trouble spiritually. I have weathered doubts before but this is a big one for me. It all comes down to the latest scientific discovery on inflation. I have been reading a lot of this and it all seems to point to a multiverse and no one is telling me anything different. If it is a multiverse that we live in then as far as I can see that removes the need of a creator altogether. I just can't see where God would fit in with that concept. Also even if the BVG theorem states that multiverses have a beginning - I have a feeling that it wont be long before they discover something that falsifies that as well. You know what I am so tied of weathering these doubts. I am so tired of the arguments, debates and guessing. I just can't cope with all this along with other things going on in my life at the moment. This latest storm has brought me closer to the possibility that God does not exist at all than any other thing so far and I need help. I feel like I am wondering in a no mans land at the moment. Maybe it is because I can't think straight or that I am being silly - but like I said I am tired.

Please could you pray for me to have a real experience with God. Please pray that I can know God and Jesus without science and that all that Science will do for me is confirm what I already deeply know is true. Please pray for me to have a real encounter with Jesus that will bring me peace.

Thank you.

Silvertusk.
Where did the first atom come from for Inflation to have happened?

How do they know, if this event was not observable or able to be replicated in a lab?

In a lab or even on a computer program - who made the computer - who designed the calculations - who speculated the theory to prove there is no God - no creator needed was there then how did the computer come to being?

The point is silver, in the most rudimentary fashion, points to the need for a creator to even create a computer to calculate the math to produce the theory of Inflation and willing adherents needed to believe in the need to discount God's existence (which allows humanities limited abilities to create) and replace God with their own selves as the center of the own multi-universes of academia.

These kinds of theories come and go... Silver - amazing thing is falling prey to a theory that needed a creator to create the computer and mathematics, etc, involved to prove a theory that there can be no such thing as a Creator God is well - disingenuous. A creator needed to even design the tools to derive the theory that states there is no creator - get the point?

Look over the hall of records of discredited science claims of the past 200 years and then you might get my point...

Fact is,like the recent missing jet - endless speculation from people with ratings agendas to win public opinion is not the best way to prove error right.

Where did the first multi-universe come from and how? You are back to square one...

Most often, peoples experiences in life drive his or her need to expunge God from his or her's world view. Due to trauma, or neglect, abandonment, perfectionism, rejection, divorce,false guilt - never attaining the proper nurturing and closeness drives people to be angry at God as the cause of all his or her woes or seek to control their worlds from experiencing such loss again in diverse ways. Look at the eyes of people and you can see this...

The Multi universe theories all have a creator - human beings. Therefore the need of a creator is proven and who made humanity and all things in the universe or universes - needed a Creator as well whom is known as YHWH.

The need for a creator has been proven however the human creator must deny himself to prove creation is somehow spontaneous. Then again, where did the first spontaneous stuff come from to spontaneously ignite it all? Back to square one...

Have a good day...

:wave:
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: A brick wall.

#10

Post by Silvertusk » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:54 am

Yes I do understand that the fact that we can make certain sense out of things in the first place lends credence to a creator and there is still the fact that there is something rather than nothing at all cries for an explanation.

I am calming down a bit now - but still not quite there - need a few more questions answered.

Thanks for your patience.

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Re: A brick wall.

#11

Post by KMan87 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:39 am

I understand your struggles and I have shared in them (see my post entitled doubts). It is frustrating when headlines scream that your worldview is incorrect. There are a few things that keep me going:

The inability to transverse an infinite amount of time-- Think about it, if you started in an infinite past time, you would never reach today because there always could have been one more day in the past. At the same time when talking about the multiverse, if there are an infinite regress of universes, there always would have been one more before ours. There must be a creator that could have chosen when to create our universe.

The Bible-- in addition to the many predictions and lines of arguments presented by others on this site, keep in mind that the Bible actually predicts that people will fall away from God and begin to worship the "created things". This matches the rise of scientism we have seen recently.

The Multiverse-- With all the excitement about the multiverse, it is important to realize these theories are still highly speculative and are far from proven. If you just check out the wikipedia article for multiverse you will see a number of well respected cosmologists don't believe in the multiverse and don't believe we will ever be able to test the theories that are causing you so much pain. Maybe some day we will, and maybe some day there will be proof of a multiverse, but as Christians, is it not possible that God created more than once? Do we not already believe in Heaven, Hell and our present universe? That is at least three, and maybe there are more that haven't fallen? Who knows.

At the end of the day I understand where you are coming from. I wrestle with doubts on an almost daily basis, and have done so for over five years. I will pray for you to have an experience with God that will strengthen your faith.

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Re: A brick wall.

#12

Post by Silvertusk » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:42 am

Thank you KMan. I appreciate that.

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Re: A brick wall.

#13

Post by 1over137 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:06 pm

I will pray your tiredness will cease, and you get more strength and peace. y@};-
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: A brick wall.

#14

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:15 pm

Silvertusk wrote:You are not helping.
What kind of faith do you have, anyway? I thought you were a born-again Christian with the indwelling Holy Spirit. How can someone with the indwelling Holy Spirit and the resulting new nature question God's existence? Something doesn't add up!

Were you just a religious guy posing as a Christian?

FL y:-?
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: A brick wall.

#15

Post by 1over137 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:07 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:You are not helping.
What kind of faith do you have, anyway? I thought you were a born-again Christian with the indwelling Holy Spirit. How can someone with the indwelling Holy Spirit and the resulting new nature question God's existence? Something doesn't add up!

Were you just a religious guy posing as a Christian?

FL y:-?
I admire Silver's sincerity. There may be times Christians may be tired, have doubts. Do not tire him even more.

Peace y@};-
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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