Judas Iscariot

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
Felgar
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1143
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:24 am
Christian: No
Location: Calgary, Canada
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#16

Post by Felgar » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:42 pm

puritan lad wrote:Says Who?
What are you questioning here? Doesn't it stand to reason that if someone is not born then they will not experience their life on Earth?

Or are you saying that God will send fetuses and infants to hell?

User avatar
puritan lad
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:44 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Stuarts Draft, VA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

#17

Post by puritan lad » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:58 pm

Felgar wrote:
puritan lad wrote:Says Who?
Or are you saying that God will send fetuses and infants to hell?
If they are unregenerate, then yes, unless you believe that God accepts unregenerate sinners into heaven. The "age of accountability" doctrine is popular, but there is absolutely no biblical support for this belief. (It is a natural progression from Arminianism, since there is no other way to explain the plight of infants.) In an effort to be less harsh, I won't tell you what I really think of this doctrine, but it is clearly another gospel.

Psalm 51:5
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

Felgar
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1143
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:24 am
Christian: No
Location: Calgary, Canada
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#18

Post by Felgar » Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:45 pm

puritan lad wrote:
Felgar wrote:
puritan lad wrote:Says Who?
Or are you saying that God will send fetuses and infants to hell?
If they are unregenerate, then yes, unless you believe that God accepts unregenerate sinners into heaven. The "age of accountability" doctrine is popular, but there is absolutely no biblical support for this belief. (It is a natural progression from Arminianism, since there is no other way to explain the plight of infants.) In an effort to be less harsh, I won't tell you what I really think of this doctrine, but it is clearly another gospel.
There is definately biblical support for age of accountability. You have to accept that God is loving and just first though, which you don't seem to.

I wonder how David's son entered heaven if you're right. What do you mean by unregenerate?

PS I don't agree with Arminianism btw, neither am I a Calvinist. Reality is between both extremes in my opinion.

User avatar
AttentionKMartShoppers
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:37 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Austin, Texas
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

#19

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:56 pm

Laddy, you might want to quote verses that are actually relevant to the subject you're arguing about. You just backed up the doctrine of original sin.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

User avatar
puritan lad
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:44 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Stuarts Draft, VA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

#20

Post by puritan lad » Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:35 am

Correct. The "age of accountability" doctrine actually denies Original sin. According to the doctrine, infants are sinless until the reach a certain age. I would like for anyone to point out a single scripture that supports this doctrine. It just isn't there.

As far as David's child goes, he was holy, because he was a child of a believer, whereas otherwise he would have been unclean (1 Cor. 7:14).

And I do believe that God is Love.

Felgar
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1143
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:24 am
Christian: No
Location: Calgary, Canada
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#21

Post by Felgar » Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:49 am

I'd say that the doctrine of salvation being passed down from one's parents is the false doctrine here, and both Ezekiel 18 and Jeremiah 31 make that exceedingly clear; as the Lord said: "every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die."

Couple that with the Jeremiah 31:34:

No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Which btw, shows that all mankind is elect, from the least to the greatest... That - in conjunction with "before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law." (Romans 5:13) which states (in my mind) that God will not hold us accountable to sin when we ae ignorant of it - indicates to me that Jesus has paid the price for our original sin, and only only when we make a choice not to believe in him is that justification not applied.

Of course you would think that God sends unknowing children to Hell, because you have no issues with your own belief that God sends most everybody to Hell, except for a few elect. Where is this God of love you serve?

User avatar
puritan lad
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:44 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Stuarts Draft, VA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

#22

Post by puritan lad » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:10 am

Felgar wrote:I'd say that the doctrine of salvation being passed down from one's parents is the false doctrine here, and both Ezekiel 18 and Jeremiah 31 make that exceedingly clear; as the Lord said: "every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die."
I never stated this as a doctrine, and it is obviously not true. The Pharisees were Abraham's descendents, and we know how that ended up. I do, however, believe that my children will grow up to be Christians, because the Bible promises me that. (Acts 2:38-39). That doesn't remove the responsibility for me to teach them in the ways of the Lord. I don't presume the promise, but i do expect it.
Felgar wrote:No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Which btw, shows that all mankind is elect, from the least to the greatest... ."
If that is true, then you have universal salvation, since "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
Felgar wrote:That - in conjunction with "before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law." (Romans 5:13) which states (in my mind) that God will not hold us accountable to sin when we ae ignorant of it - indicates to me that Jesus has paid the price for our original sin, and only only when we make a choice not to believe in him is that justification not applied.
If your mind's interpretation is correct, than why did God judge Adam and Eve, Cain, the world of Noah's day, Sodom and Gomorrah (for "lawless deeds") before the law was given (and for that matter, Pharoah). If the law does not apply to infants, then why were Covenant children circumcised when they were 8 days old, instead of the mythical "age of accountability"?
Felgar wrote:Of course you would think that God sends unknowing children to Hell, because you have no issues with your own belief that God sends most everybody to Hell, except for a few elect. Where is this God of love you serve?
Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Felgar
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1143
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:24 am
Christian: No
Location: Calgary, Canada
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#23

Post by Felgar » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:42 am

puritan lad wrote:If your mind's interpretation is correct, than why did God judge Adam and Eve, Cain, the world of Noah's day, Sodom and Gomorrah (for "lawless deeds") before the law was given (and for that matter, Pharoah).
Because they were wicked, and they knew it. Cain knew that to murder was a sin against God. They had a different law under which they their hearts were judged. Indeed, we see that Noah was righteous even at that time.

I propose that God extends grace to all who turn to Him. That is a measure of their hearts and not their deeds, and that is the universal mechanism by which they are redeemed through Christ's blood. For even Abraham had his Faith (not his works) credited to Him as righteousness. Meaning that even Abraham, by his faith, received grace and justification through Jesus. For no man comes to the Father but through Jesus - and when the Bible says no man, or all men, of the whole world I believe it.

User avatar
puritan lad
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:44 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Stuarts Draft, VA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

#24

Post by puritan lad » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:52 am

Felgar wrote:I propose that God extends grace to all who turn to Him.
This is true. However, no one can turn to Him unless it has been granted by the Father (John 6:65).
Felgar wrote:That is a measure of their hearts and not their deeds, and that is the universal mechanism by which they are redeemed through Christ's blood. For even Abraham had his Faith (not his works) credited to Him as righteousness. Meaning that even Abraham, by his faith, received grace and justification through Jesus.
All true. But you did not address how one obtains faith to begin with.
Felgar wrote:For no man comes to the Father but through Jesus - and when the Bible says no man, or all men, of the whole world I believe it.
Do you believe in universal salvation (the whole world reconciled to God - 2 Cor. 5:19)? Do you believe that Caesar taxed "the whole world" (Luke 2:1)? Do you believe that the gospel was spoken of throughout the whole world in Paul's day (Romans 1:8)? I could go on.

I heard in the news that the whole world mourned the loss of Princess Diana. Is that true?

When Jesus says that no man can come to Him unless it has been granted to him by the Father, I believe it.

Felgar
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1143
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:24 am
Christian: No
Location: Calgary, Canada
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#25

Post by Felgar » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:57 am

puritan lad wrote:
Felgar wrote:I propose that God extends grace to all who turn to Him.
This is true. However, no one can turn to Him unless it has been granted by the Father (John 6:65).
I have answered this 3 times already - God has provided the means by which we can make a free choice. We would not even have it to make without God's grace.

User avatar
puritan lad
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:44 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Stuarts Draft, VA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

#26

Post by puritan lad » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:00 am

The Bible says no such thing. Jesus came to seek and save, not to give us a choice. He saves sinners, and does not fail in His efforts.

Felgar
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1143
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:24 am
Christian: No
Location: Calgary, Canada
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#27

Post by Felgar » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:04 am

puritan lad wrote:The Bible says no such thing. Jesus came to seek and save, not to give us a choice. He saves sinners, and does not fail in His efforts.
It absolutely DOES say such a thing. Whoever drinks the water I give shall never thirst. Jesus gives, we receive.

Go ahead, take the last (misguided) word...

User avatar
puritan lad
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:44 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Stuarts Draft, VA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

#28

Post by puritan lad » Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:02 pm

I'll just give you Paul's explanation for Pharoah. If you think it's misguided, so be it.

Romans 9:19-23
"You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,"

SoaringEagle
Familiar Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:09 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#29

Post by SoaringEagle » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:07 pm

First, I think to state and actually believe innocent (in the sense of committing no sin) babies are judged and sent to hell to suffer shows that the conscience and intuition is horribly warped. But that is just my opinion. I am sincerely NOT trying to offend anyone. It appears that that doctrine must be defended as well or a whole system of theology (reformed) will fall as each point (TULIP) and teaching are so closely intertwined. Knock out one foundation stone and the rest will be unstable.

If indeed unborn, still-born, and very young infants go to hell, then what will they be punished for?
Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So I have a question! What work would unborn, still-born, and very young infants be able to commit? The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23), and with that in mind, what sin would the ones in mind be able to commit. What "works" would they be punished for? No crime, no punishment.

Job 8:3 - Does God subvert judgment? Or does the Almighty pervert justice?

Well, according to some, He is so Sovereign that He can do what He wants even if it means doing something outside His nature. I mean, He determined and foreordained Adam's path to sin, and if so (according to reformers) He also predetermined before time that all babies would share and inherit adams guilt. And due to no choice or action of some babies, He has predetermined that they would be punished in hell for all eternity. That's the most lunaticical thing I have ever heard. I am not being arrogant when I say this. No offense or disrespect to anyone.

Here is an example that adequeately expresses the same thing with a different situation.Say a cop pulls someone over, and plants drugs on them, then arrests him for possession of drugs, and punishes something that was 1. totally out of his hands, and 2 not a choice or act that he himself made would that cop be considered just? Of coarse not.

Yet that is what (as far as I know) those who say babies go to hell are teaching. But the bible says the soul that sins, it shall die, and that the wages of sin is death. But an unborn baby cannot sin, therefore will not be punished for anything. Jusice is just as important to God if not more than His Sovereignty. God's Sovereignty is submitted to His righteousness. In fact, the two things that are considered the "pillars" of His throne and kingdom are righteousness and justice. Sovereignty is not mentioned here.

Ps 89:14 - Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face

Heb 1:8 - But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

In conclusion, it would be unjust for God to punish babies who may have a sinful nature in one sense, but are totally innocent in the other and have committed no sin. No crime, no punishment. No works, no judgment.
Even Charles Spurgeon agreed that no babies will be punished.

SoaringEagle

SoaringEagle
Familiar Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:09 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#30

Post by SoaringEagle » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:29 pm

If no one deserves to be saved, how does God decide who to save? If you quote Ephesians and say His decision what motivated in love, and was according to his kind intention, then my only question in response to this can be why does God have this love and kind intention for some and not others? I'm not saying he isn't allowed to do this (though I disagree with Reformed theology and teach this isn't how He expresses His nature), I just want to know why He does this if anyone reading this believes He does?

1. I can't see why God would have different feelings for different people if all the people are the same and deserve death. I have heard the analogy of a judge pardoning one person marked for death and not having to pardon all the people. But, I would assume that he saw somthings in that person. If he saw nothing in any of them, I would be curious as to his motivation. If he said it was a secret, I would still be curious. On top of that, I'd want to know why he was keeping secrets.

2. As a person on death row, I'd like to know EXACTLY why I'm being hung and others got off the hook. To me, that is showing some kind of favortism or special favor.

On another note, If God had saved everyone, would his glorify decrease, increase, or stay the same? What if he hadn't saved anyone?

OOHH how beatiful does that old hymn accurately express God's love.
It goes:
"Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world. Red and yellow black and white, they are precious in His sight, Jesus loves the little children of the world." I believe it to this day, that He loves all enough to save them all, even though all will not be saved.

But wait a minute, you are being hypocritical in singing this song if
1. You believe God sends babies to hell
2. That God doesn't have a God has a special salvational redemptive love for every creature especially babies.

In His Love and without intentional disrepsect for any,
SoaringEagle

Post Reply