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General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Post by Anonymous »

The Quran in arabic means Recitation. Meaning that it is something that is recited. The very first verses that came down Gibril (Peace be upon him) were the opening verses of Sura Al-'Alaq (The Clot);

In the Name of Allâh, the Most
Beneficent, the Most Merciful.


1. Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),

2. Has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood).

3. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous,

4. Who has taught
(the writing) by the pen [the first person to write was Prophet Idrees (Enoch)],

5. Has taught man that which he knew not.

6. Nay! Verily, man does transgress all bounds
(in disbelief and evil deed, etc.).

7. Because he considers himself self-sufficient.

8. Surely! Unto your Lord is the return.


An important point to note is that each Sura is endorsed by Allah - The all-knowing Creator;

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem (In the Name of Allâh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.)

Also it may feel different to parts of the OT; particular with the total absence of pornographic once-upon-time stories, an outpouring of scorn and hatred towards Allah's prophets (peace be upon them all) and their unified message summed up by the Messiah Eisa (Jesus) (peace be upon him);

Mk12:28..."Which is the first of all the commandments?"
Mk12:29 Jesus replied, "The first is this: 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone!


The Qur'ân is the name given to Allah's speech that He revealed to His Servant and Messenger Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him); speech that is recited as an act of worship, is miraculous, and cannot be imitated by man. It is the name of Allah's Book, and no other book is called by this name. The most common names for Allah's Book are al-Qur'ân (the Recital) and al-Kitâb (the Book). This is an indication of how much care has been taken in its preservation, both in the memories of people as well as in written form, each way of preserving it reinforcing the other.

The meaning of revelation:

Revelation is where Allah gives whatever knowledge He wills to those whom He chooses to receive it. Allah gives this knowledge to them in order for them to convey it to whomever else He wishes.

All the Messengers of Allah experienced revelation. Allah says:

4:163 “Verily, We have sent Revelation to you (O Muhammad) as We have sent Revelation to Nûh (Noah) and the prophets who came after him. We had sent revelation to Ibrâhîm (Abraham), Ismâ`îl (Ishmael), Ishâq (Isaac), Ya`qûb (Jacob), the Tribes, `Isâ (Jesus), Ayyûb (Job), Yûnus (Jonah), Hârûn (Aaron), and Sulaymân (Solomon). And to Dâwûd (David) We gave the Zabor (Psalms).

164. And Messengers We have mentioned to you before, and Messengers We have not mentioned to you, - and to Mûsa (Moses) Allâh spoke directly.

165. Messengers as bearers of good news as well as of warning in order that mankind should have no plea against Allâh after the Messengers. And Allâh is Ever All¬Powerful, All¬Wise.

166. But Allâh bears witness to that which He has sent down
(the Qur'ân) unto you (O Muhammad SAW), He has sent it down with His Knowledge, and the angels bear witness. And Allâh is All-Sufficient as a Witness.

The Occurrence of Revelation:

Revelation is a fact that cannot be denied by anyone who believes in the existence of Allah and His absolute Power. The Creator and Sustainer maintains His creation in any manner that pleases Him. The connection between the Creator and his Creation is by way of His Messengers, and these Messengers only know what Allah wants from them by way of revelation, either directly or indirectly. The rational mind cannot dismiss the possibility of revelation, since nothing is difficult for the All-Powerful Creator.

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was born in Mecca in the year 570 C.E. At the age of 40, he started receiving divine Revelations from the One God, Allah, through Archangel Gabriel. This process of divine revelations continued for about 22.5 years just before he passed away.

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) miraculously memorized each revelation and used to proclaim it to his Companions. Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) used to refresh the Quranic memory of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) each year.

'The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was the most generous person, and he used to become more so (generous) particularly in the month of Ramadan because Gabriel used to meet him every night of the month of Ramadan till it elapsed. Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) use to recite the Qur'an for him. When Gibril (Gabrie) (peace be upon him) met him, he use to become more generous than the fast wind in doing good'.

'Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he (Prophet) died'. The recitation of The Quran is the basis of The Ritual prayer in Islam.

The Quran was recited aloud by everyone in congregation 9 times a day in a formal setting. When one is constantly reminded of Allah's words who would dare attempt to change them? And who can? Allah ha promised to guard His Last Book from corruption himself.

39:27. And indeed We have put forth for men, in this Qur'ân every kind of similitude in order that they may remember.

39:28. An Arabic Qur'ân, without any crookedness
(therein) in order that they may avoid all evil which Allâh has ordered them to avoid, fear Him and keep their duty to Him.

39:29. Allâh puts forth a similitude: a (slave) man belonging to many partners (like those who worship others along with Allâh) disputing with one another, and a (slave) man belonging entirely to one master, (like those who worship Allâh Alone). Are those two equal in comparison? All the praises and thanks be to Allâh! But most of them know not.

39:30. Verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) will die and verily, they (too) will die.

39:31. Then, on the Day of Resurrection, you will be disputing before your Lord.

39:32. Then, who does more wrong than one who utters a lie against Allâh, and denies the truth
[this Qur'ân, the Prophet (Muhammad SAW), the Islâmic Monotheism, the Resurrection and the reward or punishment according to good or evil deeds] when it comes to him! Is there not in Hell an abode for the disbelievers?

39:41. Verily, We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ân) for mankind in truth. So whosoever accepts the guidance, it is only for his ownself, and whosoever goes astray, he goes astray only for his (own) loss. And you (O Muhammad SAW) are not a Wakîl (trustee or disposer of affairs, or keeper) over them.

39:55. "And follow the best of that which is sent down to you from your Lord (i.e. this Qur'ân, do what it orders you to do and keep away from what it forbids), before the torment comes on you suddenly while you perceive not!"

39:56. Lest a person should say: "Alas, my grief that I was undutiful to Allâh (i.e. I have not done what Allâh has ordered me to do), and I was indeed among those who mocked [at the truth! i.e. Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh - none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh), the Qur'ân, and Muhammad SAW and at the faithful believers, etc.]

39:57. Or (lest) he should say: "If only Allâh had guided me, I should indeed have been among the Muttaqûn (pious and righteous persons)."

58. Or (lest) he should say when he sees the torment: "If only I had another chance (to return to the world) then I should indeed be among the Muhsinûn (good-doers)."

39:59. Yes! Verily, there came to you My Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and you denied them, and were proud and were among the disbelievers.

39:60. And on the Day of Resurrection you will see those who lied against Allâh
(i.e. attributed to Him sons, partners, etc.) their faces will be black. Is there not in Hell an abode for the arrogant ones?

6:92. And this
(the Qur'ân) is a blessed Book which We have sent down, confirming (the revelations) which came before it, so that you may warn the Mother of Towns (i.e. Makkah) and all those around it. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in (the Qur'ân), and they are constant in guarding their Salât (prayers).

6:93. And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allâh, or says: "I have received inspiration," whereas he is not inspired in anything; and who says, "I will reveal the like of what Allâh has revealed." And if you could but see when the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong­doers, etc.) are in the agonies of death, while the angels are stretching forth their hands (saying): "Deliver your souls! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation because of what you used to utter against Allâh other than the truth. And you used to reject His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) with disrespect!"

7:168. And We have broken them (i.e. the Jews) up into various separate groups on the earth, some of them are righteous and some are away from that. And We tried them with good (blessings) and evil (calamities) in order that they might turn (to Allâh's Obedience).

7:169. Then after them succeeded an (evil) generation, which inherited the Book, but they chose (for themselves) the goods of this low life (evil pleasures of this world) saying (as an excuse): "Everything will be forgiven to us." And if (again) the offer of the like (evil pleasures of this world) came their way, they would (again) seize them (would commit those sins). Was not the covenant of the Book taken from them that they would not say about Allâh anything but the truth? And they have studied what is in it (the Book). And the home of the Hereafter is better for those who are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2). Do not you then understand?

7:170. And as to those who hold fast to the Book (i.e. act on its teachings) and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), certainly, We shall never waste the reward of those who do righteous deeds.

7:34. And every nation has its appointed term; when their term is reached, neither can they delay it nor can they advance it an hour
(or a moment).

7:35. O Children of Adam! If there come to you Messengers from amongst you, reciting to you, My Verses, then whosoever becomes pious and righteous, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

7:36. But those who reject Our Ayât
(proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and treat them with arrogance, they are the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire, they will abide therein forever.

7:37. Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allâh or rejects His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) ? For such their appointed portion (good things of this worldly life and their period of stay therein) will reach them from the Book (of Decrees) until, when Our Messengers (the angel of death and his assistants) come to them to take their souls, they (the angels) will say: "Where are those whom you used to invoke and worship besides Allâh," they will reply, "They have vanished and deserted us." And they will bear witness against themselves, that they were disbelievers.

7:38. (Allâh) will say: "Enter you in the company of nations who passed away before you, of men and jinns, into the Fire." Every time a new nation enters, it curses its sister nation (that went before), until they will be gathered all together in the Fire. The last of them will say to the first of them: "Our Lord! These misled us, so give them a double torment of the Fire." He will say: "For each one there is double (torment), but you know not."

7:39. The first of them will say to the last of them: "You were not better than us, so taste the torment for what you used to earn."

7:40. Verily, those who belie Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and treat them with arrogance, for them the gates of heaven will not be opened, and they will not enter Paradise until the camel goes through the eye of the needle (which is impossible). Thus do We recompense the Mujrimûn (criminals, polytheists, sinners, etc.).

7:41. Theirs will be a bed of Hell (Fire), and over them coverings (of Hell-fire). Thus do We recompense the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong­doers, etc.).

7:42. But those who believed (in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism), and worked righteousness - We tax not any person beyond his scope, such are the dwellers of Paradise. They will abide therein.

7:43. And We shall remove from their breasts any
(mutual) hatred or sense of injury (which they had, if at all, in the life of this world); rivers flowing under them, and they will say: "All the praises and thanks be to Allâh, Who has guided us to this, never could we have found guidance, were it not that Allâh had guided us! Indeed, the Messengers of our Lord did come with the truth." And it will be cried out to them: "This is the Paradise which you have inherited for what you used to do."

7:44. And the dwellers of Paradise will call out to the dwellers of the Fire
(saying): "We have indeed found true what our Lord had promised us; have you also found true, what your Lord promised (warnings, etc.) ?" They shall say: "Yes." Then a crier will proclaim between them: "The Curse of Allâh is on the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong­doers, etc.),"

15:9. Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur'ân) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).

With regard to references to Allah's prophets of old and related stories, why would you think this odd? There is only One God Alone. The only 'story' told in full in the Quran is the story of Yusef(Joseph) (peace be upoin him) in response to a challenge from the Jews in Madina. The Quran is Allah talking directly to both the believers and the unbelievers.

There are no words from men in the Quran. These are the words of your God whether you acknowledge it in this life or not. Either way you will acknowledge it in the hereafter.
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Post by Felgar »

No time to post tonight, but I'd like to discuss with you the validity of the Bible vs. the Quran. I remember a post about how you trust the Quran because it's the revelation of a single man, while the Bible lack credability because it has been written over very long time periods and by many people. Is that an accurate statement of your beliefs? Is there anything you'd like to add or comment on in this regards?
Anonymous

Post by Anonymous »

Not the revelation of a single man but rather the revelation from Allah (Glory to Him Most High) through his spirit, the High Angel Gibril (peace be upon him) to Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). Nor just the alteration of the books themselves.

More so it is the denial in your hearts of the truth that is in The Quran and still found in the bible. This is the what the term Kafir (unbeliever) means: One who covers/hides the truth after Allah's Light (Glory to Him Most High) ignites in one's heart. We can't see what is happening in a man's heart but Allah (Glory to Him Most High) is all-seeing all-hearing.

Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened. But most will not or cannot hear what Jesus and the bible is saying.

Matt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.

7:14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
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Post by Mastermind »

My main problem with the quran is that it says things about Jesus that his own followers would disagree with. It makes him to be a prophet, which means 1 of 2 things to me:

1. The quran is wrong
2. The quran was distorted during its 200 years of oral transmission

I have to give the bible authority over the quran as far as Jesus is concerned simply because it was written by men who knew him.
Are you threatening me Master Skeptic?
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Post by Felgar »

muhammad wrote:Not the revelation of a single man but rather the revelation from Allah (Glory to Him Most High) through his spirit, the High Angel Gibril (peace be upon him) to Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). Nor just the alteration of the books themselves.

More so it is the denial in your hearts of the truth that is in The Quran and still found in the bible.
But I deny absolutely NO truth that is still found in the Bible... None at all. Does that make me ok in the eyes of Allah?
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Post by atheist »

I have to give the bible authority over the quran as far as Jesus is concerned simply because it was written by men who knew him.
:?: Like who? I would gladly listen to the historical proofs about the writers of the NT instead of vague and shallow answers like "read the scholars".
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Post by Felgar »

atheist wrote: :?: Like who? I would gladly listen to the historical proofs about the writers of the NT instead of vague and shallow answers like "read the scholars".
Ask and you shall receive. Try to keep an open mind and understand the evidence provided. In particular, the "The Integrity of the Manuscript Evidence" is a good section containing the information that you are looking for. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... rigin.html
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Post by Prodigal Son »

i can't discover islam, or perhaps i have and found it false. before i became christian, i thought all relgions worshipped the same God too, but now i see more clearly.

i guess the easiest way to look at it: islam states that Jesus was "just another prophet." there is much proof, even outside of christianity/the bible of Jesus' divinity. so, there is the biggest lie/blasphemy of all.

for more info. on islam:
http://answering-islam.org/Muhammad/index.html
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Post by Felgar »

But there is no question that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all call the very same entity Lord. We all claim that the God of Abraham is God. Of course where we differ is on the nature of that God, and on the divinity and purpose of Jesus.
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Post by Prodigal Son »

felgar,

true,but since Jesus is God in the flesh, wouldn't denying him be denying God? you can believe in God, but denying his nature is not following him/worshipping him.
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Felgar, Same God?

Post by Christian2 »

Hello,
But there is no question that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all call the very same entity Lord. We all claim that the God of Abraham is God. Of course where we differ is on the nature of that God, and on the divinity and purpose of Jesus.
I have a little problem with your thoughts. I think that there is no doubt that the Muslims think that they are worshipping the same God as the Jews and Christians. I believe that. The problem I have is the source of the Qur'an. If it claims to follow the God of Abraham, does that make it so? How do we know? Don't we have to ask ourselves if that angel that Muhammad claims to have been speaking to was actually an angel sent from the God of Abraham? I don't think so.

I don't want to insult any Muslim viewers with my next comment, but it is a thought that has entered my mind. If the "angel" who visited Muhammad (assuming that one did), was not from God, then he had to have come from a different source. What source? I remember the Three Temptations of Christ. Satan asked Jesus to bow down and worship him and he'd give him the world. What if Satan disguised as an "angel" offered the same to Muhammad and he accepted? If this is so, then who are the Muslims really worshipping?

I can think of no being who wouldn't be tickled pink if we all did not accept the salvation of the cross and believed that Jesus did not die for our sins, than Satan himself.

So in the long run, the question would be: Would it matter to the God of Abraham if people only thought that they were worshipping Him?

What do you think?
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Post by atheist »

Ask and you shall receive. Try to keep an open mind and understand the evidence provided. In particular, the "The Integrity of the Manuscript Evidence" is a good section containing the information that you are looking for. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... rigin.html
No problem, Felgar. I'll try to keep an open mind. But I think that the guy who wrote your article also should have to agree to do so and don't tell plain lies like those that plague the whole text. Just take a look at how this guy conceals the fact that we have no proof about who wrote the four books of NT. How he disguises and dismisses the opinion of recognized philologists because "Skeptics and liberal Christian scholars both seek to date the New Testament books as late first century or early second century writings. They contend that these books were not written by eyewitnesses but rather by from second or third hand sources". Not very serious, I think. Should we say then that orthodox Christian scholars actually seek to date the books before just to make them match their prejudices because they desperately want that History fulfill their wishes?
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Post by Prodigal Son »

christian2,

there also wasn't any evidence that muhammad saw an angel; he had no witnesses?
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Post by Prodigal Son »

atheist,

people seek to do and contend alot of nonsense. truth is, there are more sources and evidence of the writings' authenticity, than against them.
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Re: Felgar, Same God?

Post by Felgar »

Christian2 wrote:
But there is no question that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all call the very same entity Lord. We all claim that the God of Abraham is God. Of course where we differ is on the nature of that God, and on the divinity and purpose of Jesus.
I have a little problem with your thoughts. I think that there is no doubt that the Muslims think that they are worshipping the same God as the Jews and Christians. I believe that.
This is all I am saying. I fully agree with this statement as well as the entire rest of your post. What did you think I was implying?
colors wrote:true,but since Jesus is God in the flesh, wouldn't denying him be denying God? you can believe in God, but denying his nature is not following him/worshipping him.
Well let's just break this wide open then; this question is at the heart of whether or not Jews are saved. Clearly they deny Jesus, yet they remain God's chosen people. I'm not 100% decided either way if they are saved or not. What is your interpretation of Romans 10:11-13? Maybe we should start a new thread on this topic. Think?
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