Universalism

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Christian2
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Universalism

#1

Post by Christian2 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:29 am

"Universalism is the teaching that all people will be saved. Some say that it is through the atonement of Jesus that all will ultimately be reconciled to God. Others just say that all will go to heaven sooner or later, whether or not they have trusted in or rejected Jesus as savior during their lifetime. This universal redemption will be realized in the future where God will bring all people to repentance. This repentance can happen while a person lives or after he has died and lived again in the millennium (as some "Christian universalists" claim) or some future state." (CARM)

Is there any biblical support for Universalism?

Thank you.

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Philip
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Re: Universalism

#2

Post by Philip » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:18 pm

Is there any biblical support for Universalism?

Thank you.
No! Actually, quite the opposite. And if universalism were true, the sacrifice of Christ wouldn't be urgent or necessary - not if everyone is saved. Guess Hitler and the other tyrants of history just loved that doctrine!

Read this: https://www.gotquestions.org/universalism.html

Christian2
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Re: Universalism

#3

Post by Christian2 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:00 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:18 pm
Is there any biblical support for Universalism?

Thank you.
No! Actually, quite the opposite. And if universalism were true, the sacrifice of Christ wouldn't be urgent or necessary - not if everyone is saved. Guess Hitler and the other tyrants of history just loved that doctrine!

Read this: https://www.gotquestions.org/universalism.html
I've already read it. Thanks.

I'm concerned because my United Methodist Church is having a Bible Study on Rob Bell's book, "Love Wins" and it is positive -- everyone gets saved, even after you die.

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Philip
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Re: Universalism

#4

Post by Philip » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:38 pm

Christian2, there is a whole thread on Rob Bell's heretical beliefs from four years ago: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40472

And here is a good article on Bell's Book, "Love Wins"
https://carm.org/love-wins-by-rob-bell

Christian2
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Re: Universalism

#5

Post by Christian2 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:31 am

Philip wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:38 pm
Christian2, there is a whole thread on Rob Bell's heretical beliefs from four years ago: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40472

And here is a good article on Bell's Book, "Love Wins"
https://carm.org/love-wins-by-rob-bell
Thank you.

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Re: Universalism

#6

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:22 pm

I'm not Universalist, that is, I don't believe all get to "be with" God. Yet, at the same time, drawing upon both philosophical and theological thinking, I don't believe that God isn't there in some way with all hereafter.

Indeed, I don't see it is really possible for ALL to be with God, that is unless God manipulates and forces everyone to rightfully "bow down" to Him. Any decision of such must be free and uncoerced, it's a decision God leaves up to us to make. In this respect, Universalism is unsound in that it presumes everyone would want God, or see God in His rightful place as God. Universalism presumes those who don't want God in this life, that such will eventually be won over (brainwashed?) into eventually loving him in the next. Secondly, it is presumptuous of the spiritual reality, for Universalism applies "physical dimensions" (time/temporality/change) to a non-physical Spiritual world. I don't claim to know how it precisely works hereafter, but it seems that things may be rather "set" in the spirtual world (Scripturally speaking), rather than being "dynamic" like we experience in our temporal world.

Perhaps the best analogy I can apply here re: time differences is when we dream. This is imo perhaps one of the closest things we naturally experience that resembles a spiritual plane of existence. Whole psudeo-physical worlds, people and events are conjured up seemingly by the power of our own conscious minds. Consider that dreams seem to pay no respect to real time. I saw my wife recently nod off for a second, and then wake up. She then proceeded to tell me about what she'd just dreamt which was packed full of happenings and events that'd consume a day, at least half a day. What the heck is up with that? It seems impossible. We have no clarity on how time works, for all our science and philosophising about what it is and isn't. We don't know that "change" is even a possible thing once reduced to a raw spiritual plain of existence.

So then, with all that, I have some other interesting thoughts on God's relationship to existence, which places a very different perspective on "Hell" than one might traditionally think of in Christian beliefs.

We believe God is resposible for all existence and the continued existing of anything that exists (1). Therefore, any who are conscious, God is there allowing such to be, giving them their very existence in every moment, indeed experiencing their every moment even alongside them (if we believe God is also omniscient).

If (1) is true, then "Hell" isn't a place that can exist separate from God Himself. Further God is still the sustainer of all, including sustaining all forms of consciousness. Unless God "annihiliates" those who reject him, God is there with them. Yet, while Annihilationism is something that for me holds some allure, I don't believe it to be an entirely Biblical sound doctrine. Therefore, God must minimally hold those who reject him in existence.

What then of "Hell", if God be there. How can it be so bad? Well, the cage isn't something external, but internal. We see people in life, destroying themselves, with their own mental cages. We sometimes create and experience mental cages of our own. We see people entirely blinded to truth, very narcissistic personality types who see everything wrong with others and only perfection in themselves. The cage such are in, the blinders that are over their eyes, the darkness they experience, their cage is largely their own doing and making. They'll never escape it, never see or perceive God. Then, as I believe, the spiritual world is static and not one of flux that allows change like in our temporal world, they're forever trapped.

God works with us for a time, in this physical world we are blessed to live within, but then God must eventually bring all to end. In the end we're told God will then judge the world. He is patient in allowing everything that will happen, to happen, until the very end. Yet, then God will make things final. When God finalised thigns there is no more undoing, moving back and foward, or changing one's self. What has been done, is all that will be done.

Those are my own thoughts, and why Universalism can't be true, unless some serious logical or practical problems are overcome. Make of them what you will.
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"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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