Protestant v Catholic

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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RickD
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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#16

Post by RickD » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:02 pm

Philip,

Byblos was responding specifically to what you said here:
Mary was the physical mother of the human shell that Jesus took on. Period!
From reading what you wrote, it seems you're saying that Mary was the mother of only the physical or human "part" of Jesus.

Mary was the mother of the person, Jesus Chris, who is God. You are arguing the same thing I was arguing.

Christ's humanity, or human shell as you put it, isn't separate from his divine nature. See Hypostatic Union.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#17

Post by Philip » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:50 pm

Rick, you know my point - that there is no justification whatsoever for asserting Mary to be relevant as one to beseech or pray to so as to receive intercession on our behalf! That's total CC bunk. My point had nothing to do with Who, what, or whatever attributes and nature is inherent in Christ. It only has to do with the false beliefs and misguided practices surrounding deceased saints, including Mary. And I'm quite sure Mary would tell us the very same - would denounce such practices herself.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#18

Post by LittleHamster » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:10 pm

RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:59 am
TruthSeeker035 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:05 pm
As I get older im starting to reflect on my last 4 decades. Im trying to piece things together and make sense of it all. I definitely struggle with things on a daily basis. I do come from a religious background. Other things happened that started making me ask my own questions tho. I am dead set that there is a God. I dont always understand certain things in my life tho. In essence im continuing in my struggles to find my answers.

My background includes Salvation Army, Baptist, Assemblies of God. I also briefly attended Catholic Mass as kid while in foster care.
Before this thread goes completely off the rails, do you have any specific questions to which you need answers?

Are you trying to decide on a church to attend?
What about Matthew 18:19-20 ?. I've found that the denomination of Church is (almost) irrelevant - just ignore the pomp. Make sure it's a Christian church. If you don't like churches, get a discussion group together for an hour in the park :-)

"19Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.”
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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#19

Post by TruthSeeker035 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:13 pm

To answer one of the questions here ......
"What I am actually wondering about is what this original post has anything at all to do with P vs C, other than the title of course, which precipitated responses totally unrelated to the OP. Perhaps TruthSeeker can shed some light on that? "
I had been offline here for awhile but wanted to post an "Icebreaker" post last night without it being too long and needed to be up early this morning. So to elaborate, my aunt converted to Catholicism when I was younger after always having been a Salvationist. Nearly everyone in my early days on that side of my family had been an officer within the Salvation Army. It was a huge surprise for me when she converted. I have been researching both sides. I spent an majority of my last day off work studying Luthers 95 Thesis's from his Foundation site. Like did i get it wrong ? Am I missing something ? So lets back tract I told myself. So thats the basis for this topic.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#20

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:27 am

The NT states:
Luke 1:28
To say that Mary was simply like everyone else is incorrect.
She was chosen to bring the Son of God into this world.
Mary is NOT to be worshiped for this but she is to be revered for this.

As for what I wrote above, I was expressing my option BUT it seems to make sense to me that Mary, being specially chosen by God, would not have to go through the resurrection.
I don't know that for sure, just as I don't know for sure the other way and it doesn't really matter one way or another.

Point being, which seems to have been lost, is that I can understand why she would be revered but I don't get the praying to her part, or to anyone other than Christ.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#21

Post by RickD » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:43 pm

PaulS wrote:
...but I don't get the praying to her part, or to anyone other than Christ.
Be careful or you may be thrown out of the Catholic Church!
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#22

Post by Byblos » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:49 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:27 am
I don't get the praying to her part, or to anyone other than Christ.
I'm assuming you mean asking for her intercession (to pray for us), right? And if you don't get that then perhaps you need to stop asking your family and friends to pray for you. But you don't think there's anything wrong with that, do you?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#23

Post by RickD » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:19 pm

Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:49 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:27 am
I don't get the praying to her part, or to anyone other than Christ.
I'm assuming you mean asking for her intercession (to pray for us), right? And if you don't get that then perhaps you need to stop asking your family and friends to pray for you. But you don't think there's anything wrong with that, do you?
Unless they're dead!
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#24

Post by Byblos » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:33 pm

RickD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:19 pm
Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:49 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:27 am
I don't get the praying to her part, or to anyone other than Christ.
I'm assuming you mean asking for her intercession (to pray for us), right? And if you don't get that then perhaps you need to stop asking your family and friends to pray for you. But you don't think there's anything wrong with that, do you?
Unless they're dead!
Ah yes, I guess it is conceivable that the woman who gave birth to God in the flash is dead and still awaiting her resurrection like everyone else. It is also conceivable that heaven is empty save for the Godhead.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#25

Post by RickD » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:06 pm

Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:33 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:19 pm
Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:49 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:27 am
I don't get the praying to her part, or to anyone other than Christ.
I'm assuming you mean asking for her intercession (to pray for us), right? And if you don't get that then perhaps you need to stop asking your family and friends to pray for you. But you don't think there's anything wrong with that, do you?
Unless they're dead!
Ah yes, I guess it is conceivable that the woman who gave birth to God in the flash is dead and still awaiting her resurrection like everyone else. It is also conceivable that heaven is empty save for the Godhead.
And it's also conceivable that there's no practical difference between necromancy, which is attempting to speak with those who have died, and praying to saints that have died.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#26

Post by Byblos » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:38 pm

RickD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:06 pm
Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:33 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:19 pm
Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:49 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:27 am
I don't get the praying to her part, or to anyone other than Christ.
I'm assuming you mean asking for her intercession (to pray for us), right? And if you don't get that then perhaps you need to stop asking your family and friends to pray for you. But you don't think there's anything wrong with that, do you?
Unless they're dead!
Ah yes, I guess it is conceivable that the woman who gave birth to God in the flash is dead and still awaiting her resurrection like everyone else. It is also conceivable that heaven is empty save for the Godhead.
And it's also conceivable that there's no practical difference between necromancy, which is attempting to speak with those who have died, and praying to saints that have died.
Then you don't know what necromancy is. It's not just to communicate with the dead, it's the effort to obtain information from them. There is nothing about the communion of the saints that has anything to do with necromancy.

And one last thing as this is really a subject I've no interest whatsoever in discussing, communion of the saints is not indigenous to Catholicism. In fact it is gaining ground even among protestant demons, not because they've all of a sudden become decidedly more Catholic, but because they see it as a biblical doctrine.

Carry on.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#27

Post by Philip » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:54 pm

Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:49 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:27 am
I don't get the praying to her part, or to anyone other than Christ.
I'm assuming you mean asking for her intercession (to pray for us), right? And if you don't get that then perhaps you need to stop asking your family and friends to pray for you. But you don't think there's anything wrong with that, do you?
But the CC goes WAY beyond teaching that we are to ask Mary to pray for us! Again, and without any Biblical instructions to do this to ANY deceased saint. We also have no way of knowing passed saints can even hear us.

The CC asserts Mary is sinless. Still a virgin. And is Co-Redemptrix - that is, she play a role in cooperation with Christ for people's salvation, and is a dispenser of God's blessings and grace. There is unquestionably a Cult of Mary encouraged by the CC. Read more here: https://www.jashow.org/articles/world-r ... w-of-mary/

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#28

Post by RickD » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:02 pm

Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:38 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:06 pm
Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:33 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:19 pm
Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:49 pm


I'm assuming you mean asking for her intercession (to pray for us), right? And if you don't get that then perhaps you need to stop asking your family and friends to pray for you. But you don't think there's anything wrong with that, do you?
Unless they're dead!
Ah yes, I guess it is conceivable that the woman who gave birth to God in the flash is dead and still awaiting her resurrection like everyone else. It is also conceivable that heaven is empty save for the Godhead.
And it's also conceivable that there's no practical difference between necromancy, which is attempting to speak with those who have died, and praying to saints that have died.
Then you don't know what necromancy is. It's not just to communicate with the dead, it's the effort to obtain information from them. There is nothing about the communion of the saints that has anything to do with necromancy.

And one last thing as this is really a subject I've no interest whatsoever in discussing, communion of the saints is not indigenous to Catholicism. In fact it is gaining ground even among protestant demons, not because they've all of a sudden become decidedly more Catholic, but because they see it as a biblical doctrine.

Carry on.
According to Merriam-Webster, necromancy is:
1 : conjuration (see conjure 2a) of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events.
Notice the underlined. People praying to people who have died( dead saints) fits into the definition of necromancy. People pray to dead saints TO INFLUENCE TO COURSE OF EVENTS!
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#29

Post by Byblos » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:48 pm

RickD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:02 pm
Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:38 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:06 pm
Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:33 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:19 pm


Unless they're dead!
Ah yes, I guess it is conceivable that the woman who gave birth to God in the flash is dead and still awaiting her resurrection like everyone else. It is also conceivable that heaven is empty save for the Godhead.
And it's also conceivable that there's no practical difference between necromancy, which is attempting to speak with those who have died, and praying to saints that have died.
Then you don't know what necromancy is. It's not just to communicate with the dead, it's the effort to obtain information from them. There is nothing about the communion of the saints that has anything to do with necromancy.

And one last thing as this is really a subject I've no interest whatsoever in discussing, communion of the saints is not indigenous to Catholicism. In fact it is gaining ground even among protestant demons, not because they've all of a sudden become decidedly more Catholic, but because they see it as a biblical doctrine.

Carry on.
According to Merriam-Webster, necromancy is:
1 : conjuration (see conjure 2a) of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events.
Notice the underlined. People praying to people who have died( dead saints) fits into the definition of necromancy. People pray to dead saints TO INFLUENCE TO COURSE OF EVENTS!
Influencing the course of events through obtaining information from the spirits.

If you want to claim intercessory prayers that are offered to God on someone's behalf are an attempt to influence the course of events then like I said, you need to condemn all types of prayers.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#30

Post by RickD » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:00 pm

Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:48 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:02 pm
Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:38 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:06 pm
Byblos wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:33 pm


Ah yes, I guess it is conceivable that the woman who gave birth to God in the flash is dead and still awaiting her resurrection like everyone else. It is also conceivable that heaven is empty save for the Godhead.
And it's also conceivable that there's no practical difference between necromancy, which is attempting to speak with those who have died, and praying to saints that have died.
Then you don't know what necromancy is. It's not just to communicate with the dead, it's the effort to obtain information from them. There is nothing about the communion of the saints that has anything to do with necromancy.

And one last thing as this is really a subject I've no interest whatsoever in discussing, communion of the saints is not indigenous to Catholicism. In fact it is gaining ground even among protestant demons, not because they've all of a sudden become decidedly more Catholic, but because they see it as a biblical doctrine.

Carry on.
According to Merriam-Webster, necromancy is:
1 : conjuration (see conjure 2a) of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events.
Notice the underlined. People praying to people who have died( dead saints) fits into the definition of necromancy. People pray to dead saints TO INFLUENCE TO COURSE OF EVENTS!
Influencing the course of events through obtaining information from the spirits.

If you want to claim intercessory prayers that are offered to God on someone's behalf are an attempt to influence the course of events then like I said, you need to condemn all types of prayers.
No I don't. Are you saying that people don't pray for a certain thing to happen? We pray to influence future events all the time. The difference between me asking a person on earth to pray with/for me, and someone asking a dead saint to pray for them, is that one is biblical and the other isn't. As you're one who holds to scripture and catholic tradition, I guess my appealing to scripture to back a doctrine, is an error on my part. You don't hold scripture in the same regard as I do. And I understand that.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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