Protestant v Catholic

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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TruthSeeker035
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Protestant v Catholic

#1

Post by TruthSeeker035 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:05 pm

As I get older im starting to reflect on my last 4 decades. Im trying to piece things together and make sense of it all. I definitely struggle with things on a daily basis. I do come from a religious background. Other things happened that started making me ask my own questions tho. I am dead set that there is a God. I dont always understand certain things in my life tho. In essence im continuing in my struggles to find my answers.

My background includes Salvation Army, Baptist, Assemblies of God. I also briefly attended Catholic Mass as kid while in foster care.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#2

Post by Stu » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:52 am

Roman Catholicism is full of man-made traditions and rules. Some are not even Biblical. Stay away from the Catholic Church.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#3

Post by neo-x » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:03 am

To be fair, nearly every sect has some form of man-made influence to it. That is not to say that all are equally bad.
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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#4

Post by 1over137 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:58 am

for example: https://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html
and there is more stuff
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#5

Post by Stu » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:28 am

1over137 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:58 am
for example: https://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html
and there is more stuff
And the thing about praying to Mary and the saints is that we have gotten so used to it that we don't really see it for what it truly is.

It's NECROMANCY, plain and simple. And that is a big no no according to God.

Whether you pray to Mary or any of the saints, they are all dead and unable to hear you anyway. Only Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God can hear you.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#6

Post by Philip » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:17 am

Whether you pray to Mary or any of the saints, they are all dead and unable to hear you anyway. Only Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God can hear you.
While they cannot hear us, they likely do pray to GOD for their loved ones they know are still on earth. And we have no way of knowing if they have any awareness of events on earth. But as for our praying to THEM? That's unscriptural nonsense! And when I have a problem with some business in which only the owner and one with authority can solve it - I go to the head honcho - as why would I bother with the hired help who have no power or authority? Same with God - why would I pray or beseech a departed saint when I can boldly And does God not intimately know our every request, need and how He will answer it? Of course He does - He doesn't need some in-between messenger to convey our concerns. And besides this, there is not one single supportive passage in Scripture that shows any Apostle of instructing or practicing such crap.

WHO, precisely, is to be our ONLY intercessor between God and man: Romans 8:34: "... Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." And, of course, Jesus is God! When we pray to God, JESUS intercedes for us and God answers us per whatever His will is.

Hebrews 4: "15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

Ephesians 3 tells us we have direct access to Christ: "... in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him."

Notice also there is no such veneration of Mary in the New Testament. When Jesus, from the Cross, instructed John to take her into his home as his new mother, strangely says not one thing to make us buy into the Maryfication of Catholicism. Nor of any other. It's a practice that appears in the 3rd or 4th century.

And don't even get me going on the perpetual virgin nonsense!

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#7

Post by Stu » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:40 am

Philip wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:17 am
Whether you pray to Mary or any of the saints, they are all dead and unable to hear you anyway. Only Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God can hear you.
While they cannot hear us, they likely do pray to GOD for their loved ones still on earth. But as for our praying to THEM? That's unscriptural nonsense! And when I have a problem with some business in which only the owner and one with authority can solve it - I go to the head honcho - as why would I bother with the hired help who have no power or authority? Same with God - why would I pray or beseech a departed saint when I can boldly And does God not intimately know our every request, need and how He will answer it? Of course He does - He doesn't need some in-between messenger to convey our concerns. And besides this, there is not one single supportive passage in Scripture that shows any Apostle of instructing or practicing such crap.

WHO, precisely, is to be our ONLY intercessor between God and man: Romans 8:34: "... Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." And, of course, Jesus is God! When we pray to God, JESUS intercedes for us and God answers us per whatever His will is.

Hebrews 4: "15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

Ephesians 3 tells us we have direct access to Christ: "... in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him."

Notice also there is no such veneration of Mary in the New Testament. When Jesus, from the Cross, instructed John to take her into his home as his new mother, strangely says not one thing to make us buy into the Maryfication of Catholicism. Nor of any other. It's a practice that appears in the 3rd or 4th century.

And don't even get me going on the perpetual virgin nonsense!
Then there's the Assumption of Mary - that Mary was taken up into heaven body and soul.

Again this is just complete made up fiction. No where in the Bible does it say this, it was declared as such by Pope Pius XII through papal infallibility.

Papal infallibility, this is another thing that has no scriptural basis, and goes directly against the teachings of the Bible that declares that man is fallen and sins and makes mistakes.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#8

Post by Byblos » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:55 am

TruthSeeker035 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:05 pm
As I get older im starting to reflect on my last 4 decades. Im trying to piece things together and make sense of it all. I definitely struggle with things on a daily basis. I do come from a religious background. Other things happened that started making me ask my own questions tho. I am dead set that there is a God. I dont always understand certain things in my life tho. In essence im continuing in my struggles to find my answers.

My background includes Salvation Army, Baptist, Assemblies of God. I also briefly attended Catholic Mass as kid while in foster care.
What I am actually wondering about is what this original post has anything at all to do with P vs C, other than the title of course, which precipitated responses totally unrelated to the OP. Perhaps TruthSeeker can shed some light on that?
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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:37 am

Praying to the saints and Mary is a tricky one.
We assume that Mary is not waiting on the resurrection since she was the Mother of Christ and holy.
Now, we don't know that, but it can be assumed that may be the case, in which, praying for Mary to intercede for us with her Son is understandable.
Praying to the saints is different since when Paul mentions that I think he refers to those ALIVE since the dead are, well, dead.
Unless of course we believe that Saints go to heaven and don't go through the resurrection and for that, I don't think there is biblical proof of this and Revelations has far too much symbolism to be used as a definite answer.

A question is also, WHO are Saints?

The Catholic church sanctifies certain people as saints BUT the bible make no such distinction as ALL those belonging to the body of Christ are called saints.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/saints/

So, the view that we should pray to others to intercede with Us before Christ is a strange one.
Certainly Christ needs no one to pray for us IF we pray to Him directly and I am sure that He doesn't hold the NUMBER of prayers direct to him for someone as influencing Him ( this person must be good because so many are praying for him).

Personally, I don't get it.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#10

Post by Stu » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:50 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:37 am
Praying to the saints and Mary is a tricky one.
We assume that Mary is not waiting on the resurrection since she was the Mother of Christ and holy.
Now, we don't know that, but it can be assumed that may be the case, in which, praying for Mary to intercede for us with her Son is understandable.

Praying to the saints is different since when Paul mentions that I think he refers to those ALIVE since the dead are, well, dead.
Unless of course we believe that Saints go to heaven and don't go through the resurrection and for that, I don't think there is biblical proof of this and Revelations has far too much symbolism to be used as a definite answer.

A question is also, WHO are Saints?

The Catholic church sanctifies certain people as saints BUT the bible make no such distinction as ALL those belonging to the body of Christ are called saints.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/saints/

So, the view that we should pray to others to intercede with Us before Christ is a strange one.
Certainly Christ needs no one to pray for us IF we pray to Him directly and I am sure that He doesn't hold the NUMBER of prayers direct to him for someone as influencing Him ( this person must be good because so many are praying for him).

Personally, I don't get it.
Could you expand on the bold part a bit more.

You say Mary was holy - that is incorrect she was no more holy than the apostles or anyone else. She simply was the mother of Jesus Christ.

Praying to her is no different than praying to the apostles.
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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#11

Post by Philip » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:28 am

Paul: "Praying to the saints and Mary is a tricky one.

We assume that Mary is not waiting on the resurrection since she was the Mother of Christ and holy.
y:O2

And just why would anyone have a Scriptural reason to assume THAT?

Mary was the physical mother of the human shell that Jesus took on. Period! While certainly a faithful and well-chosen vessel, she was a sinful human being who needed a savior just like the rest of us. Luke 1: "And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, 7 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior..."

And Jesus Himself never held her up as some sinless, saintly person beyond the role of being His mother - not during His ministry or at the Cross. When a woman praised Mary, Jesus deflected it with far different focus, although one would think this would have been a prime teaching moment to call special attention to His mother: Luke 11: "27 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Paul: Now, we don't know that, but it can be assumed that may be the case, in which, praying for Mary to intercede for us with her Son is understandable."
We have direct access to the throne of God and Jesus IS our intercessor. We have no Scriptural reason or example for such a prayer to Mary. We have no reason to even believe she can hear us. Again, why would anyone make MARY the focus of ANY prayer as we have direct access to God who hears perfectly our every prayer. The only reason people believe this is because the CC made it up - just one more thing and improper focus (this time a person) on something other than God Himself!

And just what is any saint or Mary doing or saying that A) God doesn't already perfectly know, B) or have the power to act upon, or C) that Jesus isn't already interceding on our behalf over, and D) hasn't given us one example of practice that prayers are to be to anyone but the Lord?

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#12

Post by RickD » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:59 am

TruthSeeker035 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:05 pm
As I get older im starting to reflect on my last 4 decades. Im trying to piece things together and make sense of it all. I definitely struggle with things on a daily basis. I do come from a religious background. Other things happened that started making me ask my own questions tho. I am dead set that there is a God. I dont always understand certain things in my life tho. In essence im continuing in my struggles to find my answers.

My background includes Salvation Army, Baptist, Assemblies of God. I also briefly attended Catholic Mass as kid while in foster care.
Before this thread goes completely off the rails, do you have any specific questions to which you need answers?

Are you trying to decide on a church to attend?
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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#13

Post by Byblos » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:11 pm

Philip wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:28 am
Mary was the physical mother of the human shell that Jesus took on. Period!
The Nestorians thought the same thing and they were deemed heretics, do you know why?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#14

Post by RickD » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:56 pm

Byblos wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:11 pm
Philip wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:28 am
Mary was the physical mother of the human shell that Jesus took on. Period!
The Nestorians thought the same thing and they were deemed heretics, do you know why?
Ooh, ooh, ooh, I know, I know, I know!!

Can I answer?

Nestorians believed in the disunity of the two natures of Christ.

I was in a long discussion on this forum, regarding this subject. Both Byblos and Jac(among others) were discussing this with me. I now understand that the term "Mother of God" is meant as one who bore Jesus Christ. Fully Human and fully God. Mother of God doesn't mean that Mary predated God. Mother of God doesn't mean that Mary is deity, equal to God. Mother of God is simply the title given to the mother of Christ.

The fact that I now understand is that just because certain people, Catholics(not all Catholics) and others twist who Mary is, and worship her, that doesn't take from the truth that Christ is one person with two natures. He is not one person with two separate natures. The human and divine natures, are one in Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."



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Re: Protestant v Catholic

#15

Post by Philip » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:31 pm

Regardless of the human and divine nature of Jesus, MARY was but the human vessel into which and through Jesus took on his human form. And beyond being a human vessel for that birth, Mary was a sinful human being, if but one of the best examples the world has ever had of being a faithful Christian. Her great gift was in receiving this great honor. What she gave Jesus was love, devotion, respect, and passed along his human genetics - those of Adam. Otherwise, Jesus never had a birth or beginning. Don't morph what JESUS was to put some attributes upon Mary other than how she was blessed to receive a great honor, or that she shares with every other saved human. She was never sinless. She was only a virgin until some point after Jesus birth - she had other children. There is no Scripture that asserts she was raptured to heaven. She was never indicated by Jesus to be beseeched, prayed to, or was to be some supposed intercession. Nor did any apostle ever say such!

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