I never knew you...

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
claysmithr
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I never knew you...

#1

Post by claysmithr » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:21 am

This is what I wrote about the subject...

From http://christessays.com/2018/06/14/matthew-7-21/
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
There are a few things to note here. The most important thing is that Jesus is talking about non-believers who are trusting in their works to get to heaven. This can be understood when we see what "The will of my Father" is, which is to believe in Jesus for your forgiveness of sins and your righteousness, as seen in John 6:40.

Jesus saying "I never knew you" denotes a lack of relationship with Jesus, his spirit was never inside of them. When he calls them "workers of lawlessness" he's pointing out that even our best works are sin-stained.
Is this correct?

Thanks.

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Re: I never knew you...

#2

Post by claysmithr » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:21 am

Replace non-believers with false-believers and I believe this is more accurate.

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Re: I never knew you...

#3

Post by RickD » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:20 am

claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:21 am
Replace non-believers with false-believers and I believe this is more accurate.
I don't see a distinction.

A believer is one who believes in/trusts Christ for salvation.

Non-believers/false believers don't believe in/trust Christ for salvation.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

claysmithr
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Re: I never knew you...

#4

Post by claysmithr » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:09 am

RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:20 am
claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:21 am
Replace non-believers with false-believers and I believe this is more accurate.
I don't see a distinction.

A believer is one who believes in/trusts Christ for salvation.

Non-believers/false believers don't believe in/trust Christ for salvation.
The main difference is that false believers may be professing Christians (even if they trust in their own works and never had the spirit of Christ), while non-believers are not professing Christians.

In the scripture they even cry out, "Lord! Lord!" They are somehow self-deceived about having a relationship with Jesus.

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Re: I never knew you...

#5

Post by RickD » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:30 am

claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:09 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:20 am
claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:21 am
Replace non-believers with false-believers and I believe this is more accurate.
I don't see a distinction.

A believer is one who believes in/trusts Christ for salvation.

Non-believers/false believers don't believe in/trust Christ for salvation.
The main difference is that false believers may be professing Christians (even if they trust in their own works and never had the spirit of Christ), while non-believers are not professing Christians.

In the scripture they even cry out, "Lord! Lord!" They are somehow self-deceived about having a relationship with Jesus.
I see the distinction you're trying to make, but I don't think it exists. At least in the context of what was said in the original post. You said false believers may be professing Christians, while non-believers are not professing Christians.

How are you defining "professing Christians"?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

claysmithr
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Re: I never knew you...

#6

Post by claysmithr » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:40 am

RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:30 am
claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:09 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:20 am
claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:21 am
Replace non-believers with false-believers and I believe this is more accurate.
I don't see a distinction.

A believer is one who believes in/trusts Christ for salvation.

Non-believers/false believers don't believe in/trust Christ for salvation.
The main difference is that false believers may be professing Christians (even if they trust in their own works and never had the spirit of Christ), while non-believers are not professing Christians.

In the scripture they even cry out, "Lord! Lord!" They are somehow self-deceived about having a relationship with Jesus.
I see the distinction you're trying to make, but I don't think it exists. At least in the context of what was said in the original post. You said false believers may be professing Christians, while non-believers are not professing Christians.

How are you defining "professing Christians"?
They self-identify as Christian, but may not really be. A good example of this might be wealthy TV preachers, like Joel Osteen who wrote the book "Live your best life now!" and doesn't have a firm grasp of the gospel. Earlier in Matthew 7:15 it warns of wolves in sheeps clothing. They may appear to be Christian on the outside, but inside they are ravenous wolves, and we can recognize them by their fruit.

Another good example is someone who seems super-religious but is quick to judge and condemn others, which isn't exactly "loving your neighbor as yourself," not having true faith which leads to obedience to Jesus.

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Re: I never knew you...

#7

Post by RickD » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:32 pm

claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:40 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:30 am
claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:09 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:20 am
claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:21 am
Replace non-believers with false-believers and I believe this is more accurate.
I don't see a distinction.

A believer is one who believes in/trusts Christ for salvation.

Non-believers/false believers don't believe in/trust Christ for salvation.
The main difference is that false believers may be professing Christians (even if they trust in their own works and never had the spirit of Christ), while non-believers are not professing Christians.

In the scripture they even cry out, "Lord! Lord!" They are somehow self-deceived about having a relationship with Jesus.
I see the distinction you're trying to make, but I don't think it exists. At least in the context of what was said in the original post. You said false believers may be professing Christians, while non-believers are not professing Christians.

How are you defining "professing Christians"?
They self-identify as Christian, but may not really be. A good example of this might be wealthy TV preachers, like Joel Osteen who wrote the book "Live your best life now!" and doesn't have a firm grasp of the gospel. Earlier in Matthew 7:15 it warns of wolves in sheeps clothing. They may appear to be Christian on the outside, but inside they are ravenous wolves, and we can recognize them by their fruit.

Another good example is someone who seems super-religious but is quick to judge and condemn others, which isn't exactly "loving your neighbor as yourself," not having true faith which leads to obedience to Jesus.
I think I see what you're saying. You're saying The passage is talking about false believers, or false prophets, not non-believers. But like I said, aren't false believers still non-believers?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

claysmithr
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Re: I never knew you...

#8

Post by claysmithr » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:56 pm

RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:32 pm
claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:40 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:30 am
claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:09 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:20 am


I don't see a distinction.

A believer is one who believes in/trusts Christ for salvation.

Non-believers/false believers don't believe in/trust Christ for salvation.
The main difference is that false believers may be professing Christians (even if they trust in their own works and never had the spirit of Christ), while non-believers are not professing Christians.

In the scripture they even cry out, "Lord! Lord!" They are somehow self-deceived about having a relationship with Jesus.
I see the distinction you're trying to make, but I don't think it exists. At least in the context of what was said in the original post. You said false believers may be professing Christians, while non-believers are not professing Christians.

How are you defining "professing Christians"?
They self-identify as Christian, but may not really be. A good example of this might be wealthy TV preachers, like Joel Osteen who wrote the book "Live your best life now!" and doesn't have a firm grasp of the gospel. Earlier in Matthew 7:15 it warns of wolves in sheeps clothing. They may appear to be Christian on the outside, but inside they are ravenous wolves, and we can recognize them by their fruit.

Another good example is someone who seems super-religious but is quick to judge and condemn others, which isn't exactly "loving your neighbor as yourself," not having true faith which leads to obedience to Jesus.
I think I see what you're saying. You're saying The passage is talking about false believers, or false prophets, not non-believers. But like I said, aren't false believers still non-believers?
Technically yes, but they may be self-deceived to some level to call themselves a Christian.

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Re: I never knew you...

#9

Post by B. W. » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:26 am

claysmithr wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:56 pm
....Technically yes, but they may be self-deceived to some level to call themselves a Christian.
Yes, I agree with what you said.

They only know the 'jesus' they created in their own imagine and likeness to justify their own desires for self acclaim and to sell their wares... and new doctrines.

Someone mentioned a Kat Kerr and I tried to watch some youtube video but could not after a few seconds. I literally felt sick to my stomach by what she was saying things like: "people ride Harley Motorcycles that can fly in heaven - and other strange stuff."

I turned the film off and the sick feeling left immediately.

I could help but think of the bible verse being discussed here. I pray she repents and stops this kind of stuff and gets right with the Lord before it is too late - that best we can do and warn others of her strange doctrines...and false prophecies...
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claysmithr (Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:55 pm)
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

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Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: I never knew you...

#10

Post by melanie » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:33 am

It’s quite a polarising difference of opinion here.
A believer no matter how flawed is still a believer vs false believers really lack any real saving faith at all.
It fundamentally is very different schools of thought on saving faith. I think we often try to see things as not divisive so we fall back on the very nice idea that differing beliefs don’t really divide within the Christian parameters.
But really when we are talking about who is saved then that is I think not only doctrinally extremely important but has to be quite divisive. By the nature of how serious the question.
That is the big question that totally polarises different Christian faiths.
With that comes, which is really inevitable pride. When we’re right and others aren’t then well we’re right.
Somehow the Good News is about determining how right we are about the message. I know I fall into that.
Who doesn’t want to be right in faith?

We are not judged on our doctrine. Nor on our pride. Or mistakes. On our deeds or self perceived notions of goodness.
Every person stands before Our Lord, broken and in sin.
That is without question all our fate.
We don’t do better than another to get further because that is self serving. We are never any better than another.
When we start trying to determine how right, better or good we are then pride steps in.
So how are we saved?
It’s nothing we do, Jesus took care of that because none of us could.
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claysmithr (Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:48 am)

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Re: I never knew you...

#11

Post by B. W. » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:48 am

melanie wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:33 am
It’s quite a polarising difference of opinion here.
A believer no matter how flawed is still a believer vs false believers really lack any real saving faith at all.
It fundamentally is very different schools of thought on saving faith. I think we often try to see things as not divisive so we fall back on the very nice idea that differing beliefs don’t really divide within the Christian parameters.
But really when we are talking about who is saved then that is I think not only doctrinally extremely important but has to be quite divisive. By the nature of how serious the question.
That is the big question that totally polarises different Christian faiths.
With that comes, which is really inevitable pride. When we’re right and others aren’t then well we’re right.
Somehow the Good News is about determining how right we are about the message. I know I fall into that.
Who doesn’t want to be right in faith?

We are not judged on our doctrine. Nor on our pride. Or mistakes. On our deeds or self perceived notions of goodness.
Every person stands before Our Lord, broken and in sin.
That is without question all our fate.
We don’t do better than another to get further because that is self serving. We are never any better than another.
When we start trying to determine how right, better or good we are then pride steps in.
So how are we saved?
It’s nothing we do, Jesus took care of that because none of us could.
Mel, please consider that we are entering in the phase mentioned in the bible as perilous times. In fact, Revelation chapter two and three both reveal that God is separating the fake form the true because judgment begins in the house of God first. False doctrine and teaching will increase. We have been warned of this and here it is gaining increasing momentum daily.

1 Peter 4:17,18,19 says what it says - like it or not.

You are correct, it is not about what we do. However, that phrase is being taken to an extreme to mean anything goes nowadays - anything you believe is okay, laziness is okay, apathy is okay, but be sure to do things like let Muslims into your country to take it over as that is loving, and support what God defines as sexual immorality as okay because they have a right due to God beings so lovingly tolerant note -1 Co 6:9,10,11.

God does not change. However, people love to change God into their own likes. There is even a cry beginning in the church that God hates old theology - note Jeremiah 6:16 - and demands it changes to a new theology more culturally in sync with the times, note Jeremiah 18:15

Yep, it is true, the great apostasy is gearing up to its own crescendo in the church and that comes first before Jesus returns to rescue his people from what comes next, which isn't pretty.

All of us need to make a decision which path to follow - Jer 6:16
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: I never knew you...

#12

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:14 am

There is an important distinction between those LEAD astray and those THAT LEAD astray.

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Re: I never knew you...

#13

Post by melanie » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:30 am

B. W. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:48 am
melanie wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:33 am
It’s quite a polarising difference of opinion here.
A believer no matter how flawed is still a believer vs false believers really lack any real saving faith at all.
It fundamentally is very different schools of thought on saving faith. I think we often try to see things as not divisive so we fall back on the very nice idea that differing beliefs don’t really divide within the Christian parameters.
But really when we are talking about who is saved then that is I think not only doctrinally extremely important but has to be quite divisive. By the nature of how serious the question.
That is the big question that totally polarises different Christian faiths.
With that comes, which is really inevitable pride. When we’re right and others aren’t then well we’re right.
Somehow the Good News is about determining how right we are about the message. I know I fall into that.
Who doesn’t want to be right in faith?

We are not judged on our doctrine. Nor on our pride. Or mistakes. On our deeds or self perceived notions of goodness.
Every person stands before Our Lord, broken and in sin.
That is without question all our fate.
We don’t do better than another to get further because that is self serving. We are never any better than another.
When we start trying to determine how right, better or good we are then pride steps in.
So how are we saved?
It’s nothing we do, Jesus took care of that because none of us could.
Mel, please consider that we are entering in the phase mentioned in the bible as perilous times. In fact, Revelation chapter two and three both reveal that God is separating the fake form the true because judgment begins in the house of God first. False doctrine and teaching will increase. We have been warned of this and here it is gaining increasing momentum daily.

1 Peter 4:17,18,19 says what it says - like it or not.

You are correct, it is not about what we do. However, that phrase is being taken to an extreme to mean anything goes nowadays - anything you believe is okay, laziness is okay, apathy is okay, but be sure to do things like let Muslims into your country to take it over as that is loving, and support what God defines as sexual immorality as okay because they have a right due to God beings so lovingly tolerant note -1 Co 6:9,10,11.

God does not change. However, people love to change God into their own likes. There is even a cry beginning in the church that God hates old theology - note Jeremiah 6:16 - and demands it changes to a new theology more culturally in sync with the times, note Jeremiah 18:15

Yep, it is true, the great apostasy is gearing up to its own crescendo in the church and that comes first before Jesus returns to rescue his people from what comes next, which isn't pretty.

All of us need to make a decision which path to follow - Jer 6:16
-
-
-
By your perception B.W. Are we living in the end perilous times? By your understanding?
You’ve planted all your eggs so to speak in some perceived end times scenario. According to how you think that will prevail. I know how forcibly that scenario is pushed and believed.
I really challenge that idea because I honestly think it’s flawed.
Scripture is very open to interpretation and end times prophecy even more so.
Personally I think even though you come from a good place your perception is flawed.
You are so certain and that in of itself is perilous.
There’s no love in fear.
Divison breeds misunderstanding and that is the nature of evil not God.

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Re: I never knew you...

#14

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:03 pm

This reminds me of a thought I have...is Mr Rogers in heaven? I would very like for him to be so, in fact out of all the sinners of the world, he is probably most qualified to go.

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Re: I never knew you...

#15

Post by Philip » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:26 pm

Regardless of where we might be on the end times timeline, no one who knows what the Bible says can reasonably dismiss the things it warns against. And most who do are cherrypicking which parts they like and which they choose to disregard. But it's either God's word OR God doesn't care what was put in it that others have claimed to be His word. But if God allowed outright false teachings and corruptions to be intermingled within the very book that has taught the world about Jesus, what would that suggest about His power, integrity, and the importance He places upon truth and His word? How could we ever trust a corrupted Bible?

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