Caught In Hail Storm

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
mrtzur2015
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Re: Caught In Hail S

#31

Post by mrtzur2015 » Fri May 04, 2018 1:05 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:47 pm
mrtzur2015 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:37 am
Read the Bible for what it Says?
You mix the laws when it’s convinent and when it’s jot you are not. The 10 says remember. If you go to the ceremonial laws as well it says do not work (part of the mosaic laws) what he meant by do not work was basically do not light fire because it was considered hard work back then ( had to go to the woods, cut trees , carry them, pile them , work hours to try and light it) which is why it was forbidden.
If someone has a grain fiend and he goes plucking this my friend
counts as work.
This abundantly shows your inability to see what was actually happening vs. what you THINK was happening. Of course it counts as work when one goes plucking grain in THEIR OWN field...to do so is to gather it for SELLING. It is the manner in which the owner makes money. However, as you, I'm sure, know, Jesus owned nothing. The disciples were PLUCKED from their manner of WORK in order to do the work of God...which paid them no salary. So when the disciples and Jesus pluck grain from a field to EAT, they are not working, but rather simply feeding themselves...against which there is no law...is there?

None sense.
There is no difference between owned field or non owned field and actually plucking to eat from a non owned field would be considered theft.

mrtzur2015 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:37 am
Not true at all. There was no salvation before Christ. People was counted righteous yes. But there was no heaven to go to yet and no gods family yet. People who actually read the Bible know this the dead righteous didn’t go to heaven when died during OT times.
Technically, there's no salvation after Christ either! Actual Salvation comes at death ( if one believes that at death we go to heaven, which I don't ) or at Christ's second coming ( Revelation 22:12 ). Has Christ's second coming occurred? If you're saved, then you are now immortal. Are you? We are assured of salvation through Christ and some might even allude to that as HAVING salvation, but yet if we actually HAD salvation, we wouldn't be in the body of sin, would we?

Jesus said trust in my promsisis and rejoice in your salvation heck the helmet of salvation which I’m wearing right now. Therefore I am saved.

mrtzur2015 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:37 am
God said remember meaning remember . There is no need to simplify it. Rest of the instructions were given as part of the mosaic law and and the old covenant.
Wrong. The 10 are specific and separate...hence why the tablets were put into the Arc of the...the...the what?
( Revelation 11:19 - when is this seen? )
The ark of the covenant. Which proves you wrong. (Was a part of the covenant or else they wouldn’t put it in an ark of the covenant would they?)
mrtzur2015 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:37 am
As I said the I’m the New Testament Jesus is quoting these laws many times and leaving shabath one out on porpoise. There is no reason to ignore this. You say we “shove aside” yet you ignore the whole New Testament.
I agree. Christ didn't mention the Sabbath in a law context. He just lived it.
He did mention a lot of other laws as well as living them. Therefore.....
mrtzur2015 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:37 am
Also that is exactly what you are saying . If there was salvation during OT times Jesus has died for nothing .
It's the same salvation we have today...based on something we have FAITH in.
Wrong. God has never promised salvation to the righteous of OT times.
Like Jesus has said he’s the truth the way and the life. Only through him one has access to salvation.
mrtzur2015 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:37 am
There is no need for the 10 commandments today they are all included in 2 commandments. Jesus says do not me.

1. Love your God with all your heart soul and mind.
2. Love your neighbors as you love yourself.
Who are our beihboors? Everyone.
If we love one another we will not kill steal covet and all the things mentioned in the 10 commandments therefore obsolete.
The Law is SUMMED UP...the Law was never removed.

The first 4 deal with how we are to honor/love God.
The last 6 deal with how we honor/love each other.

You do not need to elaborte . The spirit is righteous remember?
mrtzur2015 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:37 am
As I said I didn’t come to argue the Bible. I’m sharing what I know.
I know that I can’t change your mind. But leaving this here for future reference and so that people can study on their own.
You can't, but if you present a clear WORD from God, it will. I'm pretty sure you have nothing in scripture the likes of how God instituted the 10 to remove them as law.

You have yet to show me or anyone reading here how the 10 go from pointing at righteousness to NOT pointing at righteousness and therefore removed. ( Romans 3:20,21 Romans 7:12 ) What is removed, is the CURSE the Law brings upon anyone found to be in transgression thereof. ( Galatians 3:13 )
No need to prove anything since you yourself said you don’t believe we go to heaven therefore this discussion is of no use.
I’m sure someone who’s actually looking for truth will find it within what I’m says no. You are not looking thereof.

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Re: Caught In Hail S

#32

Post by BavarianWheels » Fri May 04, 2018 1:12 pm

mrtzur2015 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 1:05 pm
No need to prove anything since you yourself said you don’t believe we go to heaven therefore this discussion is of no use.
I’m sure someone who’s actually looking for truth will find it within what I’m says no. You are not looking thereof.
More proof of reading what you want vs. reading what is actually written.
.
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#33

Post by B. W. » Sat May 05, 2018 7:35 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:02 pm
:popcorn:
:popcornduo:
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#34

Post by RickD » Sat May 05, 2018 8:08 am

#GalatiansFYI
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#35

Post by B. W. » Sat May 05, 2018 8:10 am

Here is the Hebrew on Exodus 20:8

Exo 20:8 זכור את־יום השׁבת לקדשׁו׃

Zakowr et yowm has-sabbat la qaddasow

Zakowr
Remember

et
(Aleph/Tav) (the)

yowm
Day

has-sabbat
The Sabbath

la qaddasow
to keep it Holy (Set Apart)

Now If we were to read this in the OT word order it would read:

Remember [First and the Last] Day The Sabbath keep it holy/separate

Note ET or aleph and Tav many times refers to Jesus for example see Isa 41:4, Isa 44:6, Isa 48:12 and Rev 22:13

You can read it as a direct reference to Jesus mentioned in the verses above. Remember [Beginning/End or First/Last] Day The Sabbath keep it holy/separate...

When Jesus said that He is the Lord of the Sabbath - He is - He created the heavens and the earth just as the scriptures clearly attest and rested.

Exo 20:11, "For in six days YHWH (the LORD) made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore YHWH (the LORD) blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." NKJV

In verse 11 YHWH is identified by in verse 10 as Lord of the Sabbath - the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, Aleph and the Tav...

Again English translations and traditions miss the importance of how the Aleph/Tav is used in context where YHWH or EL or Elohim is used.

But Looking at the Exodus 20:10,11

Remember [First and the Last] Day The Sabbath keep it holy/separate...

...For in six days YHWH made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore YHWH blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


You can say either the first day of the week or the 7th day technically be a day of rest - that choice is up to a person to make...

Or you can say: Exodus 20:10-11 as about Jesus and his concern for people to take one day off of work a week and rest because the sabbath was made for man to rest and not the man to work to keep the sabbath holy as did the Pharisees.

Remember [First and the Last] Day The Sabbath keep it holy/separate

Amen
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mrtzur2015 (Sat May 05, 2018 11:12 am)
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#36

Post by LittleHamster » Sun May 06, 2018 1:34 am

RickD wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 6:22 pm
All kidding aside, I once had a Lays potato chip that looked like the Virgin Mary. Was that a sign?

I believe it was, because that very day I prayed the rosary, then won $20 on a scratch ticket!
I bet if you got the one shown below, you would've lost on that scratchie.

Image
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#37

Post by RickD » Sun May 06, 2018 9:26 am

LittleHamster wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 1:34 am
RickD wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 6:22 pm
All kidding aside, I once had a Lays potato chip that looked like the Virgin Mary. Was that a sign?

I believe it was, because that very day I prayed the rosary, then won $20 on a scratch ticket!
I bet if you got the one shown below, you would've lost on that scratchie.

Image
No more joking around! We have a bigger problem than holy potato chips. BavarianWheels seems to have completely ignored the book of Galatians (among others), which testifies against his belief that Christians should be following the law given to the nation of Israel.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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BavarianWheels
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#38

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon May 07, 2018 7:04 am

RickD wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:26 am
No more joking around! We have a bigger problem than holy potato chips. BavarianWheels seems to have completely ignored the book of Galatians (among others), which testifies against his belief that Christians should be following the law given to the nation of Israel.
I don't, but it would be interesting for you to show exactly where scripture states the Law is NO MORE, removed...as in the same context that it was instituted...that it NO LONGER points to righteousness and/or sin, depending on what side of the Law one stands.

What is clear is that Christ came to remove the CURSE of the law, NOT the law itself...and He never removed it in any sense that it was instituted...by CLEAR word and ACT by God as in the Sinai establishing of it.
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#39

Post by RickD » Mon May 07, 2018 7:28 am

BavarianWheels wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:04 am
RickD wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:26 am
No more joking around! We have a bigger problem than holy potato chips. BavarianWheels seems to have completely ignored the book of Galatians (among others), which testifies against his belief that Christians should be following the law given to the nation of Israel.
I don't, but it would be interesting for you to show exactly where scripture states the Law is NO MORE, removed...as in the same context that it was instituted...that it NO LONGER points to righteousness and/or sin, depending on what side of the Law one stands.

What is clear is that Christ came to remove the CURSE of the law, NOT the law itself...and He never removed it in any sense that it was instituted...by CLEAR word and ACT by God as in the Sinai establishing of it.
.
.
And there's your problem. I'm not saying the law is removed. Christians were never under the law, so to say it was removed, is not the issue.

The law was given to the nation of Israel. The physical nation of Israel. Not spiritual Israel.

God still has plans for Israel. The church has not replaced Israel.

Would you like me to post specific verses to show you that Christians are not under the law?

I figured that since you are an SDA, you would've heard the arguments against your judaizing beliefs by now.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#40

Post by B. W. » Mon May 07, 2018 7:55 am

Bav and I batted this topic around already. Last time we left in peace. As long as someone loves the Lord we can respect each others positions and leave it at that. That's how we ended this between myself and Bav years ago. He wants to worship on Saturday, fine, he does so because he loves the Lord and likewise if those who love the Lord do so on another day - fine. Be at peace.

The pharisees turned the sabbath day into a work of the law that men and women must work hard to keep. Later developed into things like, can't turn on the light switch at home or feed the dog or farm animals if one owns a farm but okay to hire non believers to work on the sabbath to do those things for you as long as you wait till Monday to pay them. Cooking a meal was considered as violation of sabbath law and punishable.

That sabbath was never meant to be turned into work to prevent work such as cooking cleaning, washing clothes, feeding animals, turning on the lights or lighting a candle, saving a life, taking care of medical emergencies, and host of other things to be right in God's sight. Just a day to take a rest to rejuvenate a person...
-
-
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#41

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon May 07, 2018 7:59 am

RickD wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:28 am
BavarianWheels wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:04 am
RickD wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:26 am
No more joking around! We have a bigger problem than holy potato chips. BavarianWheels seems to have completely ignored the book of Galatians (among others), which testifies against his belief that Christians should be following the law given to the nation of Israel.
I don't, but it would be interesting for you to show exactly where scripture states the Law is NO MORE, removed...as in the same context that it was instituted...that it NO LONGER points to righteousness and/or sin, depending on what side of the Law one stands.

What is clear is that Christ came to remove the CURSE of the law, NOT the law itself...and He never removed it in any sense that it was instituted...by CLEAR word and ACT by God as in the Sinai establishing of it.
.
.
And there's your problem. I'm not saying the law is removed. Christians were never under the law, so to say it was removed, is not the issue.

The law was given to the nation of Israel. The physical nation of Israel. Not spiritual Israel.

God still has plans for Israel. The church has not replaced Israel.

Would you like me to post specific verses to show you that Christians are not under the law?

I figured that since you are an SDA, you would've heard the arguments against your judaizing beliefs by now.
I know Christians are not under law...unto salvation. No person has ever been that they were saved by the law.

But the law has not been removed as a measure of righteousness. It remains a measure of righteousness. If you can show where it is removed as such, then you've removed the reason Christ came to die FOR US since we can NOT measure up. He didn't come to remove the law, but remove and removed the CURSE of the law...the law remains.

Now...I'd gladly continue this if you stop with the condescending tone calling me a "judaizer" as my Savior and yours was/is a Jew. In the short amount of time that I've been back, I've seen nothing but sarcasm flowing from your posts and as a moderator, THAT MUCH sarcasm makes it difficult to see through the real sarcasm and playful fun.
.
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#42

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon May 07, 2018 8:02 am

B. W. wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:55 am
Bav and I batted this topic around already. Last time we left in peace. As long as someone loves the Lord we can respect each others positions and leave it at that. That's how we ended this between myself and Bav years ago. He wants to worship on Saturday, fine, he does so because he loves the Lord and likewise if those who love the Lord do so on another day - fine. Be at peace.

The pharisees turned the sabbath day into a work of the law that men and women must work hard to keep. Later developed into things like, can't turn on the light switch at home or feed the dog or farm animals if one owns a farm but okay to hire non believers to work on the sabbath to do those things for you as long as you wait till Monday to pay them. Cooking a meal was considered as violation of sabbath law and punishable.

That sabbath was never meant to be turned into work to prevent work such as cooking cleaning, washing clothes, feeding animals, turning on the lights or lighting a candle, saving a life, taking care of medical emergencies, and host of other things to be right in God's sight. Just a day to take a rest to rejuvenate a person...
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...and I respect any and all Christians with regard to their personal beliefs, but if I'm being asked, I'm going to state my position...and it is scriptural as no person has ever been able to point to any text that does the opposite what the Sinai act of God did.
.
.

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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#43

Post by mrtzur2015 » Mon May 07, 2018 8:48 am

BavarianWheels wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:02 am
B. W. wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:55 am
Bav and I batted this topic around already. Last time we left in peace. As long as someone loves the Lord we can respect each others positions and leave it at that. That's how we ended this between myself and Bav years ago. He wants to worship on Saturday, fine, he does so because he loves the Lord and likewise if those who love the Lord do so on another day - fine. Be at peace.

The pharisees turned the sabbath day into a work of the law that men and women must work hard to keep. Later developed into things like, can't turn on the light switch at home or feed the dog or farm animals if one owns a farm but okay to hire non believers to work on the sabbath to do those things for you as long as you wait till Monday to pay them. Cooking a meal was considered as violation of sabbath law and punishable.

That sabbath was never meant to be turned into work to prevent work such as cooking cleaning, washing clothes, feeding animals, turning on the lights or lighting a candle, saving a life, taking care of medical emergencies, and host of other things to be right in God's sight. Just a day to take a rest to rejuvenate a person...
-
-
-
...and I respect any and all Christians with regard to their personal beliefs, but if I'm being asked, I'm going to state my position...and it is scriptural as no person has ever been able to point to any text that does the opposite what the Sinai act of God did.
.
.

Agreed.
What I don’t agree is the worship. We are to worship everyday it’s not just a Saturday thing. It was never just a sabbath thing.
Also imo people who can’t accept what Christ has done for them how these people are to know and love him?

Just like what I said to my friend who don’t want to believe the trinity regardless of prof I have given..
he says he loves the Lord and that’s all that matters. But how can one love someone they don’t know?

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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#44

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon May 07, 2018 9:00 am

mrtzur2015 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:48 am
Agreed.
What I don’t agree is the worship. We are to worship everyday it’s not just a Saturday thing.
You don't worship everyday. You can't. The 4th commandment is clear on why, and how we should worship...and if you work 5 or 6 days a week, you're not worshipping in the manner GOD clearly laid out with His own finger.

Both the Genesis establishment of the Sabbath and the Exodus act at Sinai are two FULL ON God acts that, if He were to remove, would require the same, IF NOT a larger and more clear removal of these.

But the acts of Jesus, in that "as was His custom" and the non-existence of any such clear word from either God the Father or Jesus, the Son incarnate to the contrary.

...and just as a side note, at creation...when God established the first law, when God rested, when God subjugated Himself to His own law, there did not exist any Jews that this specific command would only be "Jewish".
.
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

#45

Post by Philip » Mon May 07, 2018 10:35 am

It does not matter what day one keeps a Sabbath. Colossians 2: "16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or ja new moon or a Sabbath."

More here: https://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html

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