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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:20 pm
by BavarianWheels
RickD wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 11:15 am
BavarianWheels wrote:
Every single person was present at creation in the Adam and Eve.
As I'm trying to understand your position, could you please cite scripture that shows this?
Hold on there...I'm not the one claiming the law(s) is Jewish. YOU made that claim. Why do you not FIRST provide some evidence that shows the Sabbath to be Jewish as that is/was your claim and that you could easily provide texts?
RickD wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 11:15 am
I'm assuming you are talking about Genesis 2:3, when God sanctified and blessed the 7th day.
Yes, didn't I type that above?
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:26 pm
by BavarianWheels
I'm not against providing texts to support my stance. I'm against you avoiding to give any texts for the claim you've made when I've provided many texts to support my stance so far.
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:42 pm
by RickD
BavarianWheels wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:20 pm
RickD wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 11:15 am
BavarianWheels wrote:
Every single person was present at creation in the Adam and Eve.
As I'm trying to understand your position, could you please cite scripture that shows this?
Hold on there...I'm not the one claiming the law(s) is Jewish. YOU made that claim. Why do you not FIRST provide some evidence that shows the Sabbath to be Jewish as that is/was your claim and that you could easily provide texts?
RickD wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 11:15 am
I'm assuming you are talking about Genesis 2:3, when God sanctified and blessed the 7th day.
Yes, didn't I type that above?
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Bav,

You asked me here:
Will you pray on the simple question of who was present at creation when God instituted and made the 7th day holy...a day HE even rested on...as if God needs rest?
So I did. I prayed. Now I'm trying to understand what it is you want me to see. So I asked you to clarify from scripture, so I can look at it, study it, and try to understand what you are saying.

I'm doing what you asked of me. I just need the clarification from scripture that I asked for.

And to clarify something you said above, I already showed you, and provided scripture that shows you why I believe the law to observe the sabbath was given specifically to the nation of Israel. If you missed it, I can link you to the post. But it seriously gets frustrating when you keep saying I don't show you why I believe the law was given specifically to Israel.

Edit:
Here

Edit 2:
To narrow it down further, see exodus 20:1-2
20 Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]slavery.
That shows WHO God was giving the 10 commandments to.

Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:32 pm
by BavarianWheels
RickD wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:42 pm
BavarianWheels wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:20 pm
RickD wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 11:15 am
BavarianWheels wrote:
Every single person was present at creation in the Adam and Eve.
As I'm trying to understand your position, could you please cite scripture that shows this?
Hold on there...I'm not the one claiming the law(s) is Jewish. YOU made that claim. Why do you not FIRST provide some evidence that shows the Sabbath to be Jewish as that is/was your claim and that you could easily provide texts?
RickD wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 11:15 am
I'm assuming you are talking about Genesis 2:3, when God sanctified and blessed the 7th day.
Yes, didn't I type that above?
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Bav,

You asked me here:
Will you pray on the simple question of who was present at creation when God instituted and made the 7th day holy...a day HE even rested on...as if God needs rest?
So I did. I prayed. Now I'm trying to understand what it is you want me to see. So I asked you to clarify from scripture, so I can look at it, study it, and try to understand what you are saying.

I'm doing what you asked of me. I just need the clarification from scripture that I asked for.

And to clarify something you said above, I already showed you, and provided scripture that shows you why I believe the law to observe the sabbath was given specifically to the nation of Israel. If you missed it, I can link you to the post. But it seriously gets frustrating when you keep saying I don't show you why I believe the law was given specifically to Israel.

Edit:
Here

Edit 2:
To narrow it down further, see exodus 20:1-2
20 Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]slavery.
That shows WHO God was giving the 10 commandments to.
I'm going to give you texts to ponder on the biblical fact that all of humanity is doomed to sin THROUGH the first Adam.

Genesis 3:20, Romans 5:12, Romans 3:9

As to your point about the law to observe the Sabbath was given specifically to the nation of Israel, I don't dispute that per se. I dispute it was given SOLELY for Israel to observe. See also Romans 3:19

What is my proof text for this? Genesis 2:2,3 This text provides THE reason God made the 7th day holy. It provides God's initial intention of resting on the 7th day.

Then in Exodus 20:8-11, God reestablishes what was already made known to the Adam and Eve and likely was either lost to time, forgotten or God was simply restating it...the latter two make more sense according to the wording of the 4th commandment.
Exodus 20:8-11 NIV wrote:8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
1. Remember...how can something be remembered if it wasn't already known or established?
2. Keep it holy
3. How? Vs. 9, 10
4. Why? Vs. 11

No where in the words of God does it mention these laws are solely for the Jews...especially so for the 4th commandment since it was established before any Jew ever walked this earth and in fact, all of humanity was present in the Adam and Eve. That is to say, every human, Jew and Gentile is a procreation of the Adam and Eve.

If you don't hold to THAT point, then please add to the list of proof texts where it states a certain set of humans were not of the lineage of the Adam and Eve that they were not present on the 7th day of creation. Again, see Romans 3:19 to see who is under the law...that the law points at our sin...the whole world's sin "so that everyone is accountable to God".

Galatians 3:10 is clear...all who RELY ON THE LAW ( for righteousness ) are under a curse and then Galatians 3:13 clarifies even more that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. So for those who follow the law for perfect righteousness are required to follow ALL of the law ( perfectly ) for the law to declare them righteous. We can't. We are sinners from conception. The law already curses us because we are the offspring of sinners, the Adam and Eve. There is no one righteous. Romans 3:10

Furthermore:
Romans 3:27-31 NIV wrote:27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
It is clear here that there is no Jew nor Gentile. If this is true, then there is no "Jewish" law, but simply God's law for ALL of humanity...which is when He declared/made the 7th day holy...when all of humanity was present ( figuratively speaking ) in the Adam and Eve...prior to any sin entering His creation!

The Sabbath was made for man ( Mark 2:27 ). It was made for man PRIOR to sin entering humanity. Had the Adam and Eve not succumbed to their curiosity, the Sabbath would still be a thing that would be followed because God made that day holy in remembrance that HE is the Creator of all. Isaiah 66:22 alludes to the fact that the Sabbath will endure even in the new heavens and new earth.
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:03 pm
by RickD
Bav,

If you don't mind, I'd like to stick with one issue/question at a time, until we come to some kind of understanding, if that's ok with you.

If you don't mind we can focus on your point that you asked me to pray about. You said:
BavarianWheels wrote:
Every single person was present at creation in the Adam and Eve.
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that the law itself, to observe the sabbath, was instituted after God began His rest on the 7th day? And, you said that all were present in Adam and Eve, because all descended from Adam and Eve?

Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:15 am
by BavarianWheels
RickD wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:03 pm
Bav,

If you don't mind, I'd like to stick with one issue/question at a time, until we come to some kind of understanding, if that's ok with you.

If you don't mind we can focus on your point that you asked me to pray about. You said:
BavarianWheels wrote:
Every single person was present at creation in the Adam and Eve.
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that the law itself, to observe the sabbath, was instituted after God began His rest on the 7th day? And, you said that all were present in Adam and Eve, because all descended from Adam and Eve?
You tell me. What did God do/say as recorded in Genesis 2:2,3 and who was or was not present?

You tell me. Are you descended from someone/somewhere else other than the first Adam and Eve? ( 1 Corinthians 15:22 )
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:55 am
by RickD
BavarianWheels wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:15 am
RickD wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:03 pm
Bav,

If you don't mind, I'd like to stick with one issue/question at a time, until we come to some kind of understanding, if that's ok with you.

If you don't mind we can focus on your point that you asked me to pray about. You said:
BavarianWheels wrote:
Every single person was present at creation in the Adam and Eve.
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that the law itself, to observe the sabbath, was instituted after God began His rest on the 7th day? And, you said that all were present in Adam and Eve, because all descended from Adam and Eve?
You tell me. What did God do/say as recorded in Genesis 2:2,3 and who was or was not present?

You tell me. Are you descended from someone/somewhere else other than the first Adam and Eve? ( 1 Corinthians 15:22 )
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Alrighty then!

I try to talk to you about this subject again, and proceed to make sure I understand your position correctly. So instead of moving the conversation along and helping me understand by answering questions related to the point that YOU wanted to discuss, you ask me if I believe in the position that you are arguing.

If you change your mind, and actually want to have a real conversation, let me know.

Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:15 pm
by BavarianWheels
RickD wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:55 am
BavarianWheels wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:15 am
RickD wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:03 pm
Bav,

If you don't mind, I'd like to stick with one issue/question at a time, until we come to some kind of understanding, if that's ok with you.

If you don't mind we can focus on your point that you asked me to pray about. You said:
BavarianWheels wrote:
Every single person was present at creation in the Adam and Eve.
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that the law itself, to observe the sabbath, was instituted after God began His rest on the 7th day? And, you said that all were present in Adam and Eve, because all descended from Adam and Eve?
You tell me. What did God do/say as recorded in Genesis 2:2,3 and who was or was not present?

You tell me. Are you descended from someone/somewhere else other than the first Adam and Eve? ( 1 Corinthians 15:22 )
.
.
Alrighty then!

I try to talk to you about this subject again, and proceed to make sure I understand your position correctly. So instead of moving the conversation along and helping me understand by answering questions related to the point that YOU wanted to discuss, you ask me if I believe in the position that you are arguing.

If you change your mind, and actually want to have a real conversation, let me know.
Why is it so offensive to you that I use scripture to convey my position? Help me understand THAT!
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:21 pm
by RickD
BavarianWheels wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:15 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:55 am
BavarianWheels wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:15 am
RickD wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:03 pm
Bav,

If you don't mind, I'd like to stick with one issue/question at a time, until we come to some kind of understanding, if that's ok with you.

If you don't mind we can focus on your point that you asked me to pray about. You said:
BavarianWheels wrote:
Every single person was present at creation in the Adam and Eve.
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that the law itself, to observe the sabbath, was instituted after God began His rest on the 7th day? And, you said that all were present in Adam and Eve, because all descended from Adam and Eve?
You tell me. What did God do/say as recorded in Genesis 2:2,3 and who was or was not present?

You tell me. Are you descended from someone/somewhere else other than the first Adam and Eve? ( 1 Corinthians 15:22 )
.
.
Alrighty then!

I try to talk to you about this subject again, and proceed to make sure I understand your position correctly. So instead of moving the conversation along and helping me understand by answering questions related to the point that YOU wanted to discuss, you ask me if I believe in the position that you are arguing.

If you change your mind, and actually want to have a real conversation, let me know.
Why is it so offensive to you that I use scripture to convey my position? Help me understand THAT!
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Bav,

We both see the same scripture. But we obviously are interpreting it differently. So, I'm not asking you to quote scripture that I also believe to be true. I'M ASKING FOR YOUR INTERPRETATION!!!

If you don't want to directly answer what I wrote here:
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that the law itself, to observe the sabbath, was instituted after God began His rest on the 7th day? And, you said that all were present in Adam and Eve, because all descended from Adam and Eve?
Then we can stop wasting each other's time.

Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:41 pm
by BavarianWheels
RickD wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:21 pm
Bav,

We both see the same scripture. But we obviously are interpreting it differently. So, I'm not asking you to quote scripture that I also believe to be true. I'M ASKING FOR YOUR INTERPRETATION!!!

If you don't want to directly answer what I wrote here:
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that the law itself, to observe the sabbath, was instituted after God began His rest on the 7th day? And, you said that all were present in Adam and Eve, because all descended from Adam and Eve?
Then we can stop wasting each other's time.
I'm not sure what "interpretation" is needed when we both read English and there's no real DEEP theology going on in Genesis 2:2,3 nor in Exodus 20.

So let me say it clearly.

I believe the law to observe the Sabbath was instituted at creation. See Genesis 2:2,3 for the basis of that belief where it states clearly that God made the 7th day holy and rested on it because of His work of creation had finished. Both the Adam and Eve were present with God on that day.

I believe that all of humanity was present in the Adam and Eve based on ( at least ) Genesis 5:2 and onwards and 1 Corinthians 15:22 .

I believe that because of the specific wording of the 4th commandment, it alludes BACK to creation of when something happened otherwise it's impossible to "remember" something given that is totally unknown.

So if you can show me that all of humanity wasn't in the Adam and Eve or that Christ isn't the second Adam through which all humanity is saved ( 1 Corinthians 15:45-49 ), I would welcome those texts for discussion.
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 1:42 pm
by neo-x
BavarianWheels wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:41 pm
RickD wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:21 pm
Bav,

We both see the same scripture. But we obviously are interpreting it differently. So, I'm not asking you to quote scripture that I also believe to be true. I'M ASKING FOR YOUR INTERPRETATION!!!

If you don't want to directly answer what I wrote here:
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that the law itself, to observe the sabbath, was instituted after God began His rest on the 7th day? And, you said that all were present in Adam and Eve, because all descended from Adam and Eve?
Then we can stop wasting each other's time.
I'm not sure what "interpretation" is needed when we both read English and there's no real DEEP theology going on in Genesis 2:2,3 nor in Exodus 20.

So let me say it clearly.

I believe the law to observe the Sabbath was instituted at creation. See Genesis 2:2,3 for the basis of that belief where it states clearly that God made the 7th day holy and rested on it because of His work of creation had finished. Both the Adam and Eve were present with God on that day.

I believe that all of humanity was present in the Adam and Eve based on ( at least ) Genesis 5:2 and onwards and 1 Corinthians 15:22 .

I believe that because of the specific wording of the 4th commandment, it alludes BACK to creation of when something happened otherwise it's impossible to "remember" something given that is totally unknown.

So if you can show me that all of humanity wasn't in the Adam and Eve or that Christ isn't the second Adam through which all humanity is saved ( 1 Corinthians 15:45-49 ), I would welcome those texts for discussion.
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Bav. You believe that the Chinese people are descendants of Adam and Eve?

Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 1:57 pm
by BavarianWheels
neo-x wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:42 pm
Bav. You believe that the Chinese people are descendants of Adam and Eve?
Do you believe the Chinese are not children of God?
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Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:37 pm
by RickD
BavarianWheels wrote:
I believe the law to observe the Sabbath was instituted at creation. See Genesis 2:2,3 for the basis of that belief where it states clearly that God made the 7th day holy and rested on it because of His work of creation had finished. Both the Adam and Eve were present with God on that day.
Ok, let's look at the text:

Genesis 2:2-3 Nasb
2By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created [a]and made.

My belief is that there was no command to observe/obey the sabbath, until Mt. Sinai. Let's compare the text in Exodus 20:8-11, regarding the commandment to observe the sabbath.

8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who [e]stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

The commandment in exodus shows what the Israelites were to do, and not do as a commandment.

Can you tell me where in the text of Genesis 2:2-3, the commandment part is?

There doesn't appear to be any commandment or law in the text.

What we do see from the text in Genesis, is this:

1)God completed His work of creating, in six days.

2)By the 7th day, His creation was complete.

3)God rested on the 7th day.

4)God blessed the 7th day and made it holy.

What we do not see in the text, but are assumed and claimed:

1)It doesn't say that humans rested or were told to rest.

2)It doesn't say that humans were commanded to follow God’s example of resting.

3)It doesn't say that any humans were present, when God blessed the 7th day, and made it holy.

So you can see why interpretation and proper exegesis is important.

Your observance and claim that the sabbath commandment/law is a law for all humanity is based on a non-existent commandment in the text you are using as the foundation for your belief. And you don't see a problem with that?

Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:02 pm
by neo-x
BavarianWheels wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:57 pm
neo-x wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:42 pm
Bav. You believe that the Chinese people are descendants of Adam and Eve?
Do you believe the Chinese are not children of God?
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If they accept Christ yes. Not because they are descendants of adam.

Re: Caught In Hail Storm

Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:56 am
by BavarianWheels
neo-x wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:02 pm
BavarianWheels wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:57 pm
neo-x wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:42 pm
Bav. You believe that the Chinese people are descendants of Adam and Eve?
Do you believe the Chinese are not children of God?
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If they accept Christ yes. Not because they are descendants of adam.
Is there a difference? If they are grafted in...and aren't all Gentiles grafted in, is there a difference?
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