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Re: Relationship of Sin and Death

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:07 pm
by Kurieuo
As I just mentioned to Patrick, I've updated two posts above. To a much lesser extent The “Natural Theology” of Death - Part 3, however I kind of accidentally re-wrote my response entirely to Nicki which could now be considered the next part: The “Natural Theology” of Death - Part 3b (as I wasn't happy with my first response).

I'll need to review my notes a couple years back now, and see if there's more I wanted to add.

Re: Relationship of Sin and Death

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:45 pm
by patrick
I was fairly busy at the time of this update, what with moving back to my hometown and all, so I've just now gotten to really read this.

Basically, what I like most about atemporal interpretation of the consequence of sin is that it also fits with the consequence of the knowledge of good and evil. One might wonder why it is that animals suffer death as a consequence of human sin, and yet an animal has no concept of the future, so death does not exist to them. One moment they exist, the next moment they are born again. That death was a series of moments between this and that matters little (only in a social sense, e.g. other members of a pack dying, and indirectly through pain). But to one with a knowledge of good and evil, eternal death is a possible fate, thus death is revealed unto consciousness as part of such knowledge. It always existed, but was only made relevant to those who chose sin.

At any rate, I very much appreciate what you've written here, as it greatly simplifies the problem I've been having of how to interpret the Bible (which I've been able to get to a lot more of lately thanks to audiobooks). That death can be thought of as a single type even with an OEC perspective is something I'd not previously considered, and as much as I respect Jac for his stance as YEC, I've never been able to get behind rejecting the authority of scientific findings on the grounds that they conflict with a higher authority.

Re: Relationship of Sin and Death

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:46 pm
by mrtzur2015
Kurieuo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:46 pm
The relationship in Scripture of sin to death in Judeo-Christian beliefs is a very close one.
In the day Adam and Eve ate the fruit, the said penalty of such was that they would surely die. (Gen 2:17)
The Tree of Life was hidden lest they also partake of that and live forever. (Gen 3:22)

To those who have understanding, the Eucharist, is partaking of Christ that we can have eternal life (John 6:50-51). Christ who was nailed to a tree (1 Peter 2:24 KJV), that cross, and who is the fruit we must eat. (Matthew 26:26) Blessed are they who partake from the tree of life, for they are part of God's kingdom which lasts forever. (Rev 2:7; Rev 22:14)

So then, where we along with the rest of sinful humanity lost access to eternal life, in Christ hung on the cross we can regain such and enter into eternal life with God once again. The paradise that once was can be restored, only this time it is incorruptible, eternal and lasting rather than corruptible and removable.

The way i see it is that Christ has died for all humanity he died for everyone's sins weather they accept it or not.
So now there is no condemnation for sin but only if you rejected him.

See the fact that he died for everyone dont change when someone accept or rejects him, he still died for that person. now that person has to come to the understanding of that, which the Holy Spirit does for us.. if the person has Accepted this truth then (Praise the Lord) for them, they are part of Gods kingdom now, if not, they will be condemned for rejecting Christ not for their sin (Because all fell short)

Re: Relationship of Sin and Death

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:08 pm
by mrtzur2015
I remembered this verse

Revelation 20:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So therefore anyone who didn’t accept the life Christ has given everyone for free was thrown into the lake of fire. It wasn’t because of their sin but because they have rejected Christ.

Re: Relationship of Sin and Death

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:22 pm
by Kurieuo
mrtzur2015 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 5:46 pm
Kurieuo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:46 pm
The relationship in Scripture of sin to death in Judeo-Christian beliefs is a very close one.
In the day Adam and Eve ate the fruit, the said penalty of such was that they would surely die. (Gen 2:17)
The Tree of Life was hidden lest they also partake of that and live forever. (Gen 3:22)

To those who have understanding, the Eucharist, is partaking of Christ that we can have eternal life (John 6:50-51). Christ who was nailed to a tree (1 Peter 2:24 KJV), that cross, and who is the fruit we must eat. (Matthew 26:26) Blessed are they who partake from the tree of life, for they are part of God's kingdom which lasts forever. (Rev 2:7; Rev 22:14)

So then, where we along with the rest of sinful humanity lost access to eternal life, in Christ hung on the cross we can regain such and enter into eternal life with God once again. The paradise that once was can be restored, only this time it is incorruptible, eternal and lasting rather than corruptible and removable.

The way i see it is that Christ has died for all humanity he died for everyone's sins weather they accept it or not.
So now there is no condemnation for sin but only if you rejected him.

See the fact that he died for everyone dont change when someone accept or rejects him, he still died for that person. now that person has to come to the understanding of that, which the Holy Spirit does for us.. if the person has Accepted this truth then (Praise the Lord) for them, they are part of Gods kingdom now, if not, they will be condemned for rejecting Christ not for their sin (Because all fell short)
Yes, this is a side issue within the context of the topic I was establishing here -- the close relationship between sin and death as found in the scriptures.

I agree Christ died for all sin, such that our inability to be completely righteous due to our sin is no longer an obstacle between us and God (and as such, something which would ultimately result in a permanent spiritual death).

To be logically coherent though with the belief that many will still be judged and perish, the next question to answer for the Christian who believes Christ died for all is, why doesn't this "universal forgiveness" result in universal salvation? Why is it some will still be judged, declared unrighteous, cast out from God and punished with everlasting death?

There is evidently something about the transaction of "acceptance", which although Christ has died for all, such forgiveness needs to be received rather than rejected and trodden on under foot. That is, needs to be received in order for someone to pass from God's judgement (which leads to an eternal death), into everlasting life with Christ.

Re: Relationship of Sin and Death

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:35 pm
by mrtzur2015
Kurieuo wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 7:22 pm
mrtzur2015 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 5:46 pm
Kurieuo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:46 pm
The relationship in Scripture of sin to death in Judeo-Christian beliefs is a very close one.
In the day Adam and Eve ate the fruit, the said penalty of such was that they would surely die. (Gen 2:17)
The Tree of Life was hidden lest they also partake of that and live forever. (Gen 3:22)

To those who have understanding, the Eucharist, is partaking of Christ that we can have eternal life (John 6:50-51). Christ who was nailed to a tree (1 Peter 2:24 KJV), that cross, and who is the fruit we must eat. (Matthew 26:26) Blessed are they who partake from the tree of life, for they are part of God's kingdom which lasts forever. (Rev 2:7; Rev 22:14)

So then, where we along with the rest of sinful humanity lost access to eternal life, in Christ hung on the cross we can regain such and enter into eternal life with God once again. The paradise that once was can be restored, only this time it is incorruptible, eternal and lasting rather than corruptible and removable.

The way i see it is that Christ has died for all humanity he died for everyone's sins weather they accept it or not.
So now there is no condemnation for sin but only if you rejected him.

See the fact that he died for everyone dont change when someone accept or rejects him, he still died for that person. now that person has to come to the understanding of that, which the Holy Spirit does for us.. if the person has Accepted this truth then (Praise the Lord) for them, they are part of Gods kingdom now, if not, they will be condemned for rejecting Christ not for their sin (Because all fell short)
Yes, this is a side issue within the context of the topic I was establishing here -- the close relationship between sin and death as found in the scriptures.

I agree Christ died for all sin, such that our inability to be completely righteous due to our sin is no longer an obstacle between us and God (and as such, something which would ultimately result in a permanent spiritual death).

To be logically coherent though with the belief that many will still be judged and perish, the next question to answer for the Christian who believes Christ died for all is, why doesn't this "universal forgiveness" result in universal salvation? Why is it some will still be judged, declared unrighteous, cast out from God and punished with everlasting death?

There is evidently something about the transaction of "acceptance", which although Christ has died for all, such forgiveness needs to be received rather than rejected and trodden on under foot. That is, needs to be received in order for someone to pass from God's judgement (which leads to an eternal death), into everlasting life with Christ.
I think you misunderstand , Christ died for all meaning there is no more condemnation for sin. we are all unrighteous we use Jesus (Yeosha's) name and righteousness when talking to God (AkA we are in Christs body, which is also why we can speak on his behalf , in the name of Jesus etc etc this is because you are in his body).

this is also why he would say to some i never knew you even tho they used his name to make wonders, because they are not really in him, and its not a magic name or word that gets your wishes only those who are really in his body can properly use his name. this is because we actually speak on his behalf.

the rest who did not come to accept Christ will be judged because they have rejected him, not because of their sin. (we all sinned).
the only difference now is that we are in Christ and they are not. your sin remains. its just that God chooses to see Christs clean slate in your place because he has given it to you.

i think some of us are so bad that it dosent matter how much the Father will try calling them they will not answer his calling. they are lost, see hitler for example i think because he killed so many people and was so guilty it dosent matter how much the father has tried to call him his hate consumed him and he is in the pit now for sure because he killed himself.
He could of came to Christ and be saved regardless of what he has done.
I dont know if i make my message clear here or not. but the way i look at it and described it to my friend is that if you ask yourself if you are on a good side shows that you have a conscience some has lost this , and therefore they will not repent dose not matter how much the father will try (and he does).