Shades of Sin

[Storyteller]

Okay, I am thinking a few things through....

Sin.

Are there degrees of sin? How is sin judged?

How does God, or anyone, differentiate between sin? Sin is sin is it not? So does a priest that abuses boys* (and that is JUST an example, not a dig) get a harsher punishment than a thief?
Myra Hindley apparently found Christ before she died. If she did, does that mean that her sins are forgiven? Part of me thinks, of course and that`s right but there is still part of me that thinks how is that fair? But is that just me projecting my guilt of my sins? After all we are ALL sinners. Who am I to judge? God will/has forgiven my sins. Christ died for my sins.

I suppose what I`m asking really is how does God judge us in our sin? Does He? Isn`t it written somewhere that as long as we repent and accept Christ our sins are forgiven? Does that mean we can sin in the knowledge that through repentance and the mercy of Christ we are forgiven?
For me, I think it comes down to what is really in our heart. Our sincerity.

I`m scared of judgement, the judgement of God. How can I live up to God? I have sinned, probably will again, so where does that leave me? A hopeless sinner? A sinner, yes. Hopeless, no. I have faith in my Lord.

Thoughts?

* I used this as an extreme example. It is NOT a reflection of my views of Catholicism, or priests.

[RickD]

God's Grace is not fair. None of us deserve it.

[Storyteller]

I know. I guess I`m just typing out loud really, trying to figure a few things out.

[Mallz]

Here is a good start: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-punish-sin.html

I`m scared of judgement, the judgement of God. How can I live up to God? I have sinned, probably will again, so where does that leave me? A hopeless sinner? A sinner, yes. Hopeless, no. I have faith in my Lord.

1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

Our relationship with Him is just that; a relationship. When we believe in Him, we believe the relationship we have through Him. And we will act accordingly to our belief. If our fruit is not there, where is the belief? Lip service is not enough; have to give it all. We are supposed to try and live up to God and know we can't, unless we allow Him to do it for us by molding us through life (engaging in the relationship). You're expressing you doing this, rest in His grace and keep on trudging through the muck!

[Storyteller]

Thanks Mallz

That link helped a lot.

Made things a bit clearer, it`s discipline rather than punishment, and through that discipline we grow in our Lord. It is administered with love and grace.

Our sin was punished on the cross..... such a simple statement but oh so powerful. It brought it home to me, really made it clear.

Thank you!

[BGoodForGoodSake]

I was wondering if there was an underlying concept to Jesus' teachings on sin.

Does the following even come close?

Once you judge someone you no longer treat them, or consider them as equals, as brothers or sisters you have sinned.
Everyone has their own path, judging your path with another's resulting in feelings of jealousy or envy falls under this.

Once you act on this concept by violating or disrespecting someone in an act which shows that you no longer consider someone else as an equal, a brother or sister you have sinned.

Under God all are children and all equally in need of guidance and forgiveness and love.

[Nessa]

Okay, I am thinking a few things through....

Sin.

Are there degrees of sin? How is sin judged?

How does God, or anyone, differentiate between sin? Sin is sin is it not? So does a priest that abuses boys* (and that is JUST an example, not a dig) get a harsher punishment than a thief?
Myra Hindley apparently found Christ before she died. If she did, does that mean that her sins are forgiven? Part of me thinks, of course and that`s right but there is still part of me that thinks how is that fair? But is that just me projecting my guilt of my sins? After all we are ALL sinners. Who am I to judge? God will/has forgiven my sins. Christ died for my sins.

I suppose what I`m asking really is how does God judge us in our sin? Does He? Isn`t it written somewhere that as long as we repent and accept Christ our sins are forgiven? Does that mean we can sin in the knowledge that through repentance and the mercy of Christ we are forgiven?
For me, I think it comes down to what is really in our heart. Our sincerity.

I`m scared of judgement, the judgement of God. How can I live up to God? I have sinned, probably will again, so where does that leave me? A hopeless sinner? A sinner, yes. Hopeless, no. I have faith in my Lord.

Thoughts?

* I used this as an extreme example. It is NOT a reflection of my views of Catholicism, or priests.

I know there are shades of grey...about 50

[IceMobster]

Okay, I am thinking a few things through....

Sin.

Are there degrees of sin? How is sin judged?

How does God, or anyone, differentiate between sin? Sin is sin is it not? So does a priest that abuses boys* (and that is JUST an example, not a dig) get a harsher punishment than a thief?
Myra Hindley apparently found Christ before she died. If she did, does that mean that her sins are forgiven? Part of me thinks, of course and that`s right but there is still part of me that thinks how is that fair? But is that just me projecting my guilt of my sins? After all we are ALL sinners. Who am I to judge? God will/has forgiven my sins. Christ died for my sins.

I suppose what I`m asking really is how does God judge us in our sin? Does He? Isn`t it written somewhere that as long as we repent and accept Christ our sins are forgiven? Does that mean we can sin in the knowledge that through repentance and the mercy of Christ we are forgiven?
For me, I think it comes down to what is really in our heart. Our sincerity.

I`m scared of judgement, the judgement of God. How can I live up to God? I have sinned, probably will again, so where does that leave me? A hopeless sinner? A sinner, yes. Hopeless, no. I have faith in my Lord.

Thoughts?

* I used this as an extreme example. It is NOT a reflection of my views of Catholicism, or priests.

God knows what your intention is, therefore, you can't be like: "Oh, I accepted Christ as my Lord and Saviour which means all of my sins are forgiven which means I can continue to sin and then repent and then sin again and repent (....) until I die."
That is, what we, contingent humans, would call a "system abuse".

The thing is, you can't know how God judges us in our sin... Like, imagine a murderer who murdered a child and after the committed act he realizes what a stupid thing (s)he had done. Repents, asks for forgiveness, lives a life according to the life of Christ,... Does (s)he deserve heaven? If so, how can you put a child (we will assume the child is in heaven) and its murderer into the same state of the soul? It doesn't have to be a child, any person, really.
How can you put both the killer and the victim in heaven? See, we can't know what God decides in this case.
We believe that He knows what He is doing, that He has a plan for each and every one of us and that is pretty much it...

Don't be scared of the judgment. Being scared of God is never good. You can't love something you are afraid of. Wholeheartedly try fixing your mistakes (/sins) without having an intention of deceiving God (at least not consciously as described in the first example I gave) and follow Christ's teachings.

[Kurieuo]

I was wondering if there was an underlying concept to Jesus' teachings on sin.

Does the following even come close?

Once you judge someone you no longer treat them, or consider them as equals, as brothers or sisters you have sinned.
Everyone has their own path, judging your path with another's resulting in feelings of jealousy or envy falls under this.

Once you act on this concept by violating or disrespecting someone in an act which shows that you no longer consider someone else as an equal, a brother or sister you have sinned.

Under God all are children and all equally in need of guidance and forgiveness and love.

Sounds overly complicated.

I don't know if the following is what you were after,
and I'm sure you'd know much of it too, but...

Christ taught no one was good but God. (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19; Matt 19:17)
Jesus preached forgiving each other 70 times 7 (continuously), rather than condemning. (Matt 18:20)
You see a speck in your brother's eye, take the log out of yours first.
Lord's prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."
Even said those who don't forgive, won't be forgiven their sins which is serious. (Matt 6:15)

I think human equality doesn't really play part in it, rather the imago Dei does.
We are not to kill other human beings because they carry the image of God. (Gen 9:6)
Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi who used the Scriptures as an authority in His teachings.

Do not miss however, the overriding story.
What He tells the Pharisees when telling a man to get up and walk re: His ability to forgive sin. (Luke 5:20-24)
For example, what He said to the woman by the well. (John 4:13-14)
What Jesus claimed of Himself and the Father (John 14:6-7)

[melanie]

I was wondering if there was an underlying concept to Jesus' teachings on sin.

Does the following even come close?

Once you judge someone you no longer treat them, or consider them as equals, as brothers or sisters you have sinned.
Everyone has their own path, judging your path with another's resulting in feelings of jealousy or envy falls under this.

Once you act on this concept by violating or disrespecting someone in an act which shows that you no longer consider someone else as an equal, a brother or sister you have sinned.

Under God all are children and all equally in need of guidance and forgiveness and love.

I think there are many underlining concepts that Jesus spoke of in regards to sin.
But they all return to one place, which you spoke of..... forgiveness and love.
Jesus was clear about the dangers of sin but he was equally as clear about hypocrisy and judgmental attitudes.
I think you are absolutely right that when we judge someone even when they are flailing and failing and we see them as anything but our equal either in our treatment of them or our attitude towards them then we stand in sin ourselves.
People often misconstrue this idea of being overly accepting of sin.
That is a mistake.

Jesus personified forgiveness and love.
No matter how destitute a person, how sinful they were He treated them with nothing but dignity and worth. That is why He turned this world upside down. That was why He was hated, ridiculed and questioned by the religious elite because the breadth and depth of His love sunk to the very worst of us.

So we swing about this saying 'hate the sin, love the sinner'.
I honestly don't think LOVE is what people often mean when this is said. The SIN is what is forefront the love part is a disclaimer. The Sin is the defining element not the love. The back handed we love you but we see your failures.

I was reading the other day and this notion came up in regards to scripture when Jesus said, when I was in jail you did not visit me. The basic premise was this must have been people who were convicted but were innocent. Visiting the poor souls in prison who were wrongly in-prisoned.
I laughed somewhat despondently and thought 'this is so typical of what 'christianity' has become.
Why is someone in prison?
Because they are guilty
They are the epitome of sinfulness, they are criminals.
Are we called to justify their sin, NO
Are we called to assimilate it into our lifestyle which I bring up because far too often the idea that if we do not call out sin and challenge it then we excuse it, but still NO
We are called to love them regardless, to care about them. To visit them, not in some self righteous way of to appease ourselves but to CARE.
To actually give a hoot.
They are as broken as they are our brothers and sisters.

Our broken and sinful brothers and sisters often haven't heard or understood the message of Christ.
But we have.
When Jesus spoke those words in the Gospel of Matthew it is clear He was talking about believers.
It is our standard.
We follow a Saviour that tells us to love and care and forgive abundantly.
We are the shining light in a dark world.

But too often we place ourselves above others.
We pretend like we don't, but it happens far too often.
Do we wash their feet? show them abundance of kindness and genorosity?
The argument oh but their sinners, of the worst kind.
Can you imagine what we were to our perfect, sinless savour?
The weakest, most pitiful, sinful, broken, pathetic, excuses of humanity but He thought we were worth His love and forgiveness. And He showed it in His every action.
He did not forsake righteousness when He showered us with humility and kindness.
He didn't 'pretend' like sin didn't exist when He said to forgive 70 times 7
As He hung on the cross and said 'Father forgive them' He meant that for those that beat, humiliated and hung Him to die.
That's our King.

[crochet1949]

One of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is convicting a person of their sinfulness. A person Can ignore that convicting or respond in a positive way -- by confessing to God that we Have indeed sinned. And that we need forgiveness and we believe that it is Only through acknowledging that Jesus Christ Is God's Son Who did , indeed, die on the cross For Our Sinfulness -- and that He did rise from the dead, bodily after 3 days. He took the penalty for Our (My sins) sins, on Himself, went to hell For us / me/ and came back From there and lives forever / the eternal Son of God / the 2nd person of the Godhead. He did All of That For 'me' / everyone/ it's His gift of Salvation that a person needs to accept Personally in order to stay Out of hell and be Able to spend eternity in heaven with God and all the rest of the believers. And there is Nothing Anyone can do to 'help' God's salvation.
We see 'shades of sin' -- the little white lie (the wife who asks her husband if the dress looks nice on her, of Course he says 'yes' even though she might Not) compared to the man who kidnaps, rapes and murders a wonderful mother. The 2nd example we want to hang out to dry by his thumbs before we execute him / the 1st example we chuckle at -- That little white lie isn't really hurting anyone. But the 'big, bold, in your face Lie' -- some would excuse that as a psychological problem, but not 'sin'.
Or we justify Our 'sin' by finding someone who's done 'so much worse' than I have. So My sin is really being rationalized by Me , but There sin is 'oh so horrible'.
So -- would it make 'me' mad that a horrible drug lord / murderer would repent of his sins and be in heaven, but the person who was a liar would end up in hell Simply because he didn't accept Christ as his Savior. Salvation was available to Both of them. God will not withhold knowledge of His salvation from Anyone -- some will accept and some will reject.
And at some point in the past, there Was a drug dealer who Did end up in prison, heard the Gospel and Did accept Christ -- he Stayed in prison as his punishment and started sharing his testimony and started Bible studies and fellow inmates Also accepted Christ as Savior.
So , as a person feels led To share the Gospel with someone in what ever the location, Do So. Ya just never know how it will impact the person, pay it forward.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

When we see an accident many look upon and reflect on their own mortality. The result is fear. This feeling can often overshadow the feelings of sadness for the people affected, the victims family and for the victim themselves. And one thing I noticed is that there is also a beauty to death that everyone misses. Something that is fleeting and fragile is beautiful. Death defines life.

Sin is the same. When someone sins there is a tendency to look upon the sinner or the sin with revulsion, to reflect upon it and fear that the capability to sin resides within themselves. But what almost everyone misses is there is a beauty to sin. Something that is infinite and pure is also beautiful. Sin defines grace and forgiveness.

[RickD]

When we see an accident many look upon and reflect on their own mortality. The result is fear. This feeling can often overshadow the feelings of sadness for the people affected, the victims family and for the victim themselves. And one thing I noticed is that there is also a beauty to death that everyone misses. Something that is fleeting and fragile is beautiful. Death defines life.

Sin is the same. When someone sins there is a tendency to look upon the sinner or the sin with revulsion, to reflect upon it and fear that the capability to sin resides within themselves. But what almost everyone misses is there is a beauty to sin. Something that is infinite and pure is also beautiful. Sin defines grace and forgiveness.

BGood,

You sure you haven't been holding out on us? You're really a Christian, aren't you?

[BGoodForGoodSake]

You sure you haven't been holding out on us? You're really a Christian, aren't you?

Sorry to disappoint. I am not.

[Kurieuo]

When we see an accident many look upon and reflect on their own mortality. The result is fear. This feeling can often overshadow the feelings of sadness for the people affected, the victims family and for the victim themselves. And one thing I noticed is that there is also a beauty to death that everyone misses. Something that is fleeting and fragile is beautiful. Death defines life.

Sin is the same. When someone sins there is a tendency to look upon the sinner or the sin with revulsion, to reflect upon it and fear that the capability to sin resides within themselves. But what almost everyone misses is there is a beauty to sin. Something that is infinite and pure is also beautiful. Sin defines grace and forgiveness.

Where did such concepts originate? Why do all the religions of the world seem to embrace such things, in one way or another? That is, sin and the need to be cleansed, deal with it or have a solution of some sort to such?

Are you not at least intrigued by such questions?