Catholicism

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
User avatar
UsagiTsukino
Valued Member
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:10 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 6 times

Re: Catholicism

#151

Post by UsagiTsukino » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:43 pm

Thanks because I never truly understood why people out Catholics. I mean they believe in Jesus as the lord and savior and does that not matter? I mean sure they have a pope but he is not Jesus

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 349 times

Re: Catholicism

#152

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:28 am

UsagiTsukino wrote:Thanks because I never truly understood why people out Catholics. I mean they believe in Jesus as the lord and savior and does that not matter? I mean sure they have a pope but he is not Jesus
I think there is a lot of bad blood that is SUGGEST to those of the various protestant denominations.
Catholics may h ave different traditions and rules BUT none of them apply directly to salvation ( in a way that makes salvation different then what Protestants believe it to be).

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21641
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 1109 times

Re: Catholicism

#153

Post by RickD » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:09 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
UsagiTsukino wrote:Thanks because I never truly understood why people out Catholics. I mean they believe in Jesus as the lord and savior and does that not matter? I mean sure they have a pope but he is not Jesus
I think there is a lot of bad blood that is SUGGEST to those of the various protestant denominations.
Catholics may h ave different traditions and rules BUT none of them apply directly to salvation ( in a way that makes salvation different then what Protestants believe it to be).
Paul,

SOME may say that Rome added to the biblical belief of salvation, which is by grace, through faith in Christ alone. So, SOME said that Rome had a different gospel, which would mean that Rome's rules DID apply directly to salvation.

One of the guys who did believe Rome preached a different gospel, was kinda famous. You may have heard of him. His name was Martin Luther. He started a little movement called the Protestant Reformation a while back. You may have heard of it. But possibly not. It really wasn't too important. It's not like it changed history or anything. :shock:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 349 times

Re: Catholicism

#154

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:10 pm

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
UsagiTsukino wrote:Thanks because I never truly understood why people out Catholics. I mean they believe in Jesus as the lord and savior and does that not matter? I mean sure they have a pope but he is not Jesus
I think there is a lot of bad blood that is SUGGEST to those of the various protestant denominations.
Catholics may h ave different traditions and rules BUT none of them apply directly to salvation ( in a way that makes salvation different then what Protestants believe it to be).
Paul,

SOME may say that Rome added to the biblical belief of salvation, which is by grace, through faith in Christ alone. So, SOME said that Rome had a different gospel, which would mean that Rome's rules DID apply directly to salvation.

One of the guys who did believe Rome preached a different gospel, was kinda famous. You may have heard of him. His name was Martin Luther. He started a little movement called the Protestant Reformation a while back. You may have heard of it. But possibly not. It really wasn't too important. It's not like it changed history or anything. :shock:
You mean the Baptism thing?

Well:
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.


Seems to say one thing BUT then states that God's mercy will decide.

Kind of typical of the RC when it states ONE thing explicitly BUT then implies another.

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6028
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 100 times
Been liked: 142 times

Re: Catholicism

#155

Post by Byblos » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:19 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
UsagiTsukino wrote:Thanks because I never truly understood why people out Catholics. I mean they believe in Jesus as the lord and savior and does that not matter? I mean sure they have a pope but he is not Jesus
I think there is a lot of bad blood that is SUGGEST to those of the various protestant denominations.
Catholics may h ave different traditions and rules BUT none of them apply directly to salvation ( in a way that makes salvation different then what Protestants believe it to be).
Paul,

SOME may say that Rome added to the biblical belief of salvation, which is by grace, through faith in Christ alone. So, SOME said that Rome had a different gospel, which would mean that Rome's rules DID apply directly to salvation.

One of the guys who did believe Rome preached a different gospel, was kinda famous. You may have heard of him. His name was Martin Luther. He started a little movement called the Protestant Reformation a while back. You may have heard of it. But possibly not. It really wasn't too important. It's not like it changed history or anything. :shock:
You mean the Baptism thing?

Well:
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.


Seems to say one thing BUT then states that God's mercy will decide.

Kind of typical of the RC when it states ONE thing explicitly BUT then implies another.
Huh? What the heck are you talking about?

First, Rick was addressing the reformation, not baptism. And concerning that, where exactly does the RC state something explicitly then imply another? There is a general rule which is baptism (which is part and parcel of baptism of the spirit, by the way, so I hope no one is objecting to that). And then there are exceptions to the rule which are left to God's mercy. Pray tell which one do you exactly disagree with?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21641
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 1109 times

Re: Catholicism

#156

Post by RickD » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:20 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
UsagiTsukino wrote:Thanks because I never truly understood why people out Catholics. I mean they believe in Jesus as the lord and savior and does that not matter? I mean sure they have a pope but he is not Jesus
I think there is a lot of bad blood that is SUGGEST to those of the various protestant denominations.
Catholics may h ave different traditions and rules BUT none of them apply directly to salvation ( in a way that makes salvation different then what Protestants believe it to be).
Paul,

SOME may say that Rome added to the biblical belief of salvation, which is by grace, through faith in Christ alone. So, SOME said that Rome had a different gospel, which would mean that Rome's rules DID apply directly to salvation.

One of the guys who did believe Rome preached a different gospel, was kinda famous. You may have heard of him. His name was Martin Luther. He started a little movement called the Protestant Reformation a while back. You may have heard of it. But possibly not. It really wasn't too important. It's not like it changed history or anything. :shock:
You mean the Baptism thing?

Well:
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.


Seems to say one thing BUT then states that God's mercy will decide.

Kind of typical of the RC when it states ONE thing explicitly BUT then implies another.
Actually Paul,

Not baptism. I was thinking specifically about what Luther thought. Specifically the sale of indulgences for forgiveness.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 349 times

Re: Catholicism

#157

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:39 pm

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
UsagiTsukino wrote:Thanks because I never truly understood why people out Catholics. I mean they believe in Jesus as the lord and savior and does that not matter? I mean sure they have a pope but he is not Jesus
I think there is a lot of bad blood that is SUGGEST to those of the various protestant denominations.
Catholics may h ave different traditions and rules BUT none of them apply directly to salvation ( in a way that makes salvation different then what Protestants believe it to be).
Paul,

SOME may say that Rome added to the biblical belief of salvation, which is by grace, through faith in Christ alone. So, SOME said that Rome had a different gospel, which would mean that Rome's rules DID apply directly to salvation.

One of the guys who did believe Rome preached a different gospel, was kinda famous. You may have heard of him. His name was Martin Luther. He started a little movement called the Protestant Reformation a while back. You may have heard of it. But possibly not. It really wasn't too important. It's not like it changed history or anything. :shock:
You mean the Baptism thing?

Well:
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.


Seems to say one thing BUT then states that God's mercy will decide.

Kind of typical of the RC when it states ONE thing explicitly BUT then implies another.
Actually Paul,

Not baptism. I was thinking specifically about what Luther thought. Specifically the sale of indulgences for forgiveness.

Oh THAT "minor thing", LOL

Yes, will that was NOT part of RC doctrine though, was it?

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21641
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 1109 times

Re: Catholicism

#158

Post by RickD » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:57 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: I think there is a lot of bad blood that is SUGGEST to those of the various protestant denominations.
Catholics may h ave different traditions and rules BUT none of them apply directly to salvation ( in a way that makes salvation different then what Protestants believe it to be).
Paul,

SOME may say that Rome added to the biblical belief of salvation, which is by grace, through faith in Christ alone. So, SOME said that Rome had a different gospel, which would mean that Rome's rules DID apply directly to salvation.

One of the guys who did believe Rome preached a different gospel, was kinda famous. You may have heard of him. His name was Martin Luther. He started a little movement called the Protestant Reformation a while back. You may have heard of it. But possibly not. It really wasn't too important. It's not like it changed history or anything. :shock:
You mean the Baptism thing?

Well:
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.


Seems to say one thing BUT then states that God's mercy will decide.

Kind of typical of the RC when it states ONE thing explicitly BUT then implies another.
Actually Paul,

Not baptism. I was thinking specifically about what Luther thought. Specifically the sale of indulgences for forgiveness.

Oh THAT "minor thing", LOL

Yes, will that was NOT part of RC doctrine though, was it?
Afaik, no.
But this whole thing was a joke on my part, that went over your head, apparently.
I was poking fun at you, because you always say, "SOME say this".

So to be clear, as far as I know, the catholic church teaches faith in Christ saves, just like the bazillion Protestant denominations. But catholic doctrine just teaches different meanings of certain terms. Like baptism, as you mentioned.
Like Byblos said, Catholic doctrine teaches that water baptism is at the same time as Holy Spirit baptism. So they don't see water baptism as something added to faith alone.

So nevermind. My joke failed. I didn't mean to restart the Hatfield/McCoy feud.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Post Reply