Catholicism

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
abelcainsbrother
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Re: Catholicism

#16

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:04 pm

RickD wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:As a Christian it is possible to go to church and not let the doctrines of men effect you as a Christian,once I discovered doctrines of men I did not stop going to church I just did not let them effect me.I don't want to come off as anti a church because church has been more good for me than bad I just had to realize there is no perfect church and you don't have to let the doctrines of men effect you as a Christian.
I used to let doctrines of men affect me. But then I stopped believing in the Gap Theory. :mrgreen:
YEC? No wonder we've had no effect against evolution.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Catholicism

#17

Post by Storyteller » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:51 am

Rob wrote:Give all glory to God. I don't believe Mary can hear our prayers because if she could she'd be grieved since she was a very godly woman. We are not to try and communicate with the dead, whether they be in heaven or not.

Bringing my questions from Bippy's thread here:
Storyteller wrote: How, if Mary wasn`t sinless, could Christ have been born to Her? For me, and it is a personal thing, Mary is an important part of faith for me. She allows me access to God from a woman`s, and a mother`s point of view.
So was Mary's mother sinless? And her mother? And her mother? If you think that the sinless bit had to start with Mary, why couldn't it have started with Christ instead?
Storyteller wrote: It was Mary`s yes that allowed all this to happen so I think she is a vital part of my faith.
Why not give the glory to God completely? There are plenty of people and things that "allowed" the prophecy to unfold. Pilate allowed the crucifixion to happen which "caused" the atonement.
Storyteller wrote: I find the Mysteries easier to relate to, and to feel than the Bible at the moment and I am discovering that the Mysteries help me understand the Bible better.
That's kind of a red flag. Be careful about relying on what you feel too much.
I find this very difficult to explain.

I suppose what I mean is that when I read the Mysteries they got to me in a way that the Bible hasn`t (yet) they phrased things in such a way that instead of just reading the words, I actually understood them, felt them. I feel closer to God by reading and pondering on the Mysteries. I am not saying that I am Catholic, nor do I want to be. I follow no particular church. I am happier in churches that are empty. In an empty church it is just me and God, people get in the way.
I found God, and Christ, by exploring all the options, reading anything I could, and can, get my hands on about faith. I am intrigued as to why people believe what they do and why they follow a particular doctrine. Who am I to judge whether they are right? God has His own way of reaching each and every one of us. I trust He knows what He is doing.

Was Mary really sinless? I don`t know is the honest answer but I see nothing that says she definitely wasn`t. When I say I see her as the mother of God, I mean more that she was the mother of Christ.
Sure, I offer up my thanks to Her sometimes. I think there is a lot I can learn from Her on how to live a Godly life. I don`t pray to Her in place of God. In fact, when I pray, I pray to God only. I`m not even sure it`s Christ I am praying to, it`s just God. And I absolutely KNOW that He hears me. He has answered many a prayer so I must be getting something right.

I appreciate your concern Rob about being cautious about what I feel but it has led me this far. I can only go by what I feel. I am an emotional person. To grab my attention, to pique my interest I have to feel it. God knows this.
Through the Mysteries I have delved deeper into the Bible and it is actually reaching me on an emotional level rather than just being words in a book.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Catholicism

#18

Post by Storyteller » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:06 am

Perhaps I came at this too much like a bull in a china shop!

I knew nothing about Catholicism until a few weeks ago. My knowledge (or what I thought I knew) was that in the Catholic faith you prayed saying Hail Mary a lot, could sin then confess, be absolved, then sin again. Blinkered? Moi? :mrgreen:

I have been chatting to a Catholic who told me a little about what he believes and why, all the time being careful not to force Catholicism onto me. I like how he is, how he thinks and how he conducts himself so I was willing to look at it with an open mind. There are some things I am not sure about, Adoration for example, but there are lots of things I`m not sure about. YEC/OEC and the like. None of these affect my faith or my love for God. They are additions. They strengthen my faith. Just because I can appreciate different aspects of faith does not mean I am necessarily going to attach myself to them.

I have tried a few churches, none of them so far have made me feel close to God. Maybe a Catholic church would? I don`t know but I won`t dismiss it out of hand.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Catholicism

#19

Post by Rob » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:19 am

Half my family (father's side) is Roman Catholic. Or, was. When I was growing up they all went to mass. Now virtually all of them that are around my age and have abandoned their faith. Very worldly and anti-God.
I realize this doesn't mean a darn thing (I know some Protestants that were the same way, after all), but I'd be lying if I said it didn't affect my opinion of RC.

I myself am currently non-denominational, but leaning reformed Baptist. I grew up in a Pentecostal church that was very experience based. I've seen many people have "experiences" with God only to fall very far away and now claim they don't even believe in God at all, which really shook me to my core. So...were they faking it the whole time then? Crazy.

The church I currently attend I thought was non-denom, but apparently not. I only recently learned that the pastor identifies as a Pentecostal, but you wouldn't guess that if you met him. There are no tongues in church or people standing up to prophesy every two minutes or anything like you'd expect. No "slain in the spirit" experiences, etc. etc.
I went for over a year before I realized that this was a Pentecostal church, but not Word of Faith at all.

Fine by me. There are definitely some things I don't agree with, but it all comes out in the wash and they don't force any one view down your throat other than respect for the Bible and constantly seeking after Jesus, which is fine by me.
I've been helping out on the worship team (I sing and play guitar) for a while and have been recently leading a small group study on the Gospel of John. I've met some really loving and fantastic people here and plan to stay. From what I can tell most people that come to this church are also non-denom.

I really don't want to become one of those people that just hops from church to church until they find something that agrees with them on every aspect so they never have to feel uncomfortable. I like lively discussion where people might not always agree.

All that said there are many aspects of the Roman Catholic church that I very strongly disagree with. However, I realize that there are many, many good Catholics who are sincere believers and followers of Christ and plenty who also don't agree with every aspect of Catholicism. I very recently met someone who was Catholic and I was surprised to learn that he didn't think that I as a Protestant was destined for Hell because I'm outside the RCC! y>:D<

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Re: Catholicism

#20

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:17 pm

Storyteller wrote:I have tried a few churches, none of them so far have made me feel close to God. Maybe a Catholic church would? I don`t know but I won`t dismiss it out of hand.
If you are independent of spirit and somewhat introspective and not too outgoing, perhaps a Catholic mass would suit you well. No one greets you at the door before mass, no one hugs you or wants to chat with you after a Catholic mass; there are no monthly meetings after mass where someone expects you to eat their banana-chocolate cake and rave over it. At a Catholic service, you come as you are and there are no unspoken dress codes. Come in jeans and a T-shirt after you've just painted your store and no one will bat an eyelash.

The above are the advantages of the Catholic service for someone who is an introvert. The disadvantages would be the very real possibility of falling into an institutionalized form of worship where a personnal relationship with Jesus is replaced by rituals, man-made rules and prayer formulas.

FL :D

PS...if you go to a Catholic service, commune if you wish. This will be between you and God. No one will ask you for your Vatican Passport.
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

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Re: Catholicism

#21

Post by Storyteller » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:36 pm

FL?

I think I love you :)
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Catholicism

#22

Post by melanie » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:42 pm

From the introductions thread
ES wrote
Thanks for the response Melanie,

When they are placed above error, incapable of error and as authority then there is a real risk of 'the blind leading the blind'.

The sinlessness of Mary, which is not stated any where in scripture.
The perpetual Virgin, completely contradicted by scripture

German reformer Martin Luther's (1483-1546) writings often address the subject of Mary: On the Divine Motherhood of Mary, he wrote
In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such great good things were given her that no one can grasp them. ... Not only was Mary the mother of him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 7, p. 572.)

Luther, true to Catholic tradition, wrote on the Virginity of Mary:
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

The French reformer John Calvin (1509-1564) also held that Mary was the Mother of God
It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor. ... Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God. (Calvini Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, v. 45, p. 348, 35.)

On the perpetual virginity of Mary, "Calvin routinely brushes aside the difficulties sometimes raised from "first born" and "brothers of the Lord."" (O'Carroll, M., 1983, Theotokos, M Glazier, Inc.: Wilmington, DE, p. 94.) In bold... all scholars of any repute do Melanie, First born is only a term of the first one born and in no way indicates further children... Brothers of the Lord, he also easily brushed aside as it only denotes either relatives as cousins, step children, even others in the family of the towns in question...

The Swiss reformer, Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531), wrote, on the divine motherhood of Mary:
It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformation, Berlin, 1905, v. 6, I, p. 639.)
On the perpetual virginity of Mary, Zwingli wrote,
I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.)

I did want you to see it's not only Catholics who feel this way ... Here, Luther, along with Calvin (Calvinist)and Zwingli (Dutch Reform). The biggest non-Catholic hitters on post Reformation. It would seem the blind leading the blind is an issue for many.
ES my issue is with unbiblical teaching. Whom ever is teaching, following or preaching it. You are correct, it is an issue for many. I look at scripture for what it is. I do not come at it from a preconceived, indoctrinationed mind frame. It just is what it is. I have no vested interest whatsoever as to whether Jesus had siblings or not. If He didn't then great, if He did great also, it makes no difference to me. I read what scripture tells me, and I go on that. I do not have to do some mental Gymnastics with versus from the bible to have it prove an agenda, I can freely interpret it as it is intended. Can I get it wrong sometimes, sure, but that is through personal error, an error that is a heck of a lot easier to find and fix than if I have misinterpreted scripture because I am looking thorough a lens of church indoctrination, an error that I believe the 'church' is incapable of. Then I would have a very difficult time seeing the Forrest thru the trees. That right there is my issue with being too religious and caught up too heavily with 'church' instead of Christ.

The bible tells us Jesus had brothers. The Greek word for brother under its normal and literal interp is brother by birth. there is also a Greek word for cousin that it not used. The fact that Mary is mentioned as being with the 'brothers' holds more weight that they are her children.
Matthew 12:46
Luke 8:19
Mark 3:31
Acts 1:14
John 2:12
On top of the fact the bible never mentions that Mary remained a perpetual virgin. After Jesus ascended to heaven the disciples who spread the 'Good News', establishing our faith never mentioned it in the book of Acts, Paul never hinted to it, in his writings to the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians. It is not mentioned in Hebrews which speaks about how believers are to please God, the primacy of faith, the superiority of Christ ect. It is a doctrine outside of biblical truth. If you choose to believe 'church' over the word of God, then that is entirely your choice.
The only reason I brought any of this up and I was reluntant to do so, as offending people is not something I apsire to do, is because I thought Annette needed to know that these beliefs were not supported by the bible, I thought perhaps she did not know. She is free as we all are to believe what ever she likes but as a christian and someone who considers her my friend I wanted to point it out, clearly. I love God, I love His word, I want it to be presented honestly. A person should be aware that they are choosing to follow 'church' doctrine not biblical truth.
ES you think that the Catholic Church equals truth, even their doctrine outside the bible, I think the bible equals truth. Period. The only reason I pointed out Catholicism is because that was on topic, but it is by no means the only church that has doctrine outside of biblical truth. There are many and my opinion remains the same for all of them. This is not an attack on the Catholic faith.

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Re: Catholicism

#23

Post by RickD » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:42 pm

Storyteller wrote:FL?

I think I love you :)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=slSXX7r_9hs
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Catholicism

#24

Post by Storyteller » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:43 pm

I am an introvert.

My relationship, so far with Christ, has only been strengthened by what I have learnt.

It isnt about the rituals, its what they mean to me, I think they could enhance how I comunicate with Gid.

Take Communion? Of course, and yes, its between me and God.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Catholicism

#25

Post by RickD » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:47 pm

Storyteller wrote:I am an introvert.

My relationship, so far with Christ, has only been strengthened by what I have learnt.

It isnt about the rituals, its what they mean to me, I think they could enhance how I comunicate with Gid.

Take Communion? Of course, and yes, its between me and God.
A-net,

Who is Gid? Is that the god of Kvindle?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Catholicism

#26

Post by Storyteller » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:50 pm

:D

Nah! im speaking in tongues..
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Catholicism

#27

Post by Storyteller » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:51 pm

But, I mean, really? Gime a break.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Catholicism

#28

Post by RickD » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:52 pm

Storyteller wrote::D

Nah! im speaking in tongues..
I don't believe you. Catholics don't speak in tongues! y[-(
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Catholicism

#29

Post by Storyteller » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:55 pm

I'm not Catholic.











yet :D
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Catholicism

#30

Post by RickD » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:59 pm

Storyteller wrote:I'm not Catholic.











yet :D
Thank Gid!!! I thought we had lost you! y:O2
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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