The Trinity in the End Times

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The Trinity in the End Times

#1

Post by Storyteller » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:33 am

I have a question for you all.... regarding the Trinity. My understanding so far is that we have God, the Father, the creator. Christ, the son, our redeemer, God in the flesh and the Holy Spirit, the spirit that guides us. I know that it`s actually a whole lot more complicated than that but you get the gist. So..... my question is this..... God cannot look upon sin, yet He was Christ. Wouldn`t He have had to look on it then? Or is it explained by the fact Christ never actually sinned, just took on humanity`s sin? Did God turn away from Christ when the world went dark? Is that what that means? Is that why Christ called out to God, even though, He is God?
It`s not vital to my faith but it is puzzling for me so I thought I`d see what thoughts you can all offer.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: The Trinity in the End Times

#2

Post by Rob » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:42 am

I would be careful about assigning out roles. The way I understand it, All three persons are creator, redeemer, and guide.

When Christ called out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" he was quoting Psalm 22 about the suffering servant, which is a messianic Psalm about Himself. The Psalm ends with "He has done it!" which Jesus says just before giving up his spirit.

That part bothered me my whole life until I discovered that He was quoting a Psalm and applying it to Himself. It's really, really beautiful.

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Re: The Trinity in the End Times

#3

Post by Storyteller » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:54 am

I wasn`t specifically assigning roles. I fully appreciate that they are all one and the same. I get that.

The main point, or question was more about whether God (as the Father) turned away from Christ (the son) and whether God turned away from christ as He cannot look upon sin. Is that why, perhaps, the world went dark?

I can happily accept the Trinity, I may not be able to explain it very well but I do get it, I think.

I will take a look at that Psalm, Rob, thank you :)
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: The Trinity in the End Times

#4

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:48 am

The Trinity is a doctrine of Nature, it is humanities attempt to describe the nature of God AND the relationship between Father, Son and HS.
The core is that you simply can NOT have ONE without the OTHERS.
Everything done involves all 3, to think of God is to think of ALL 3.

We know that Jesus emptied Himself when He became human and as human there is some debate to how much He was still "God".
IMO, as human and to be fully human, He had to empty Himself of the vary nature of God and the powers He had while here on Earth were the powers of God FLOWING through Him.
In short He was limited.
After His resurrection He was FULLY God AND FULLY Human.

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Re: The Trinity in the End Times

#5

Post by B. W. » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:08 am

Storyteller wrote:I have a question for you all.... regarding the Trinity. My understanding so far is that we have God, the Father, the creator. Christ, the son, our redeemer, God in the flesh and the Holy Spirit, the spirit that guides us. I know that it`s actually a whole lot more complicated than that but you get the gist. So..... my question is this..... God cannot look upon sin, yet He was Christ. Wouldn`t He have had to look on it then? Or is it explained by the fact Christ never actually sinned, just took on humanity`s sin? Did God turn away from Christ when the world went dark? Is that what that means? Is that why Christ called out to God, even though, He is God?
It`s not vital to my faith but it is puzzling for me so I thought I`d see what thoughts you can all offer.
Hebrews 4:13 and Gen 18:20, 21 indicates that God most certainly sees evil and iniquity every day. These verses show that God is aware of all human thoughts and actions Job 34:22, Psalms 90:8, Jer 17:10, Zep 1:12.

You are referring to: Hab 1:13,Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they? NASB

Therefore this text has for years been taken out of context and applied in various ways. The text concerns the prophet pleading with God to relent in sending Chaldeans to punish the Israelites and asking the age old question - why - Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up those more righteous than they? NASB

The Lord answers in Hab 2:1-20 and I suggest you read it as it basically points out what the Apostle wrote in Romans 3:10-18 - there is none righteous, no not one... when he was quoting the OT on this matter.

There is no easy answer for us to grasp fully on the whys other than that God knows their end is not good allowing them enough rope to hang themselves. Hab 1:12 NASB contains an interesting principle established elsewhere in the bible with the prophets words "We will not die" again stating that God did not design human beings to cease to exist after they die but face the judgment of God and his final verdict for all eternity either as condemn or forgiven.

While we may think God does not see the evil that attacks us, He does, and will hold them to account for eternity without rest/peace. He is also just in that he even offers the most vile and dysfunctional a hand of grace so that they can accept of reject his offer despite his already foreknowing the final outcome: that many will reject and despite knowing this, he still freely offers grace. God's Justice is way beyond what our mortal minds limited it to mean in a purely lawyerized judicial sense.
Storyteller wrote:Did God turn away from Christ when the world went dark? Is that what that means? Is that why Christ called out to God, even though, He is God?


God does see our dysfunction and how it leads to wicked acts. So he sent Jesus forth to make known his offer of grace to secure his offer for those that will believe in Him so they will not perish in eternal ruin but rather have eternal ZOE Life from him instead of wrath. Therefore, when Jesus spoke those words concerning being forsaken, he was crying out the cry of all humanity - why have you forsaken us? And God answers in the silence of the scene...

Psalms 22:12-22, Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. 13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And You lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots. 19 But You, O LORD, be not far off; O You my help, hasten to my assistance. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword, My only life from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth; From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me. 22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. NASB

Before that, Jesus was plotted against, was betrayed by a friend, false witnesses bore against him, he was put on trial, mocked, beaten, put on trial before the secular rulers, whipped, made to carry a heavy load he was not able to bear so another was made to carry the wood for him.

Jesus was crucified, and then still mocked. In this, human dysfunction was clearly made known and the why - God forsook all humanity revealed... Who have we plotted against, betrayed, mocked, put on trial? How many relationships have we murdered/crucified?

How many of us have placed on others a weight one cannot carry? How have we taken advantage of God's Goodness and grace dividing it up like spoils of war? How have we place God on trial and others - whom have we bore false witness against?

My God My God why have you forsaken Me!

Is it any wonder he has? Yet, his hand of grace extends downward to humanity through Jesus Christ despite what we have done to God and each other now read Psalms 22:22-31 and what do you see?


Psalms 22:24-26, For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard. 25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly; I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him. 26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the LORD. Let your heart live forever! NASB

Jesus also said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Let us not forget that part as well as the rest of Psalms 22:22-31.

So how can it be that God cannot look at evil yet see it everyday? In Hab 1:13 the context is that God cannot look at with favor/approval of evil, sin, wickedness. In other words, those guilty will be held to account, yet, he still offers grace at the same time to all, though not all will accept his offer. This matches 1 Co 13:6 NKJV, 1 Co 13:6 NASB, 1 Co 13:6 ESV, 1 Co 13:6 NIV not that he cannot look upon evil at all but rather he cannot approve with favor evil but rather will hold those practicing it to account.

Through the work of God upon the cross we are saved from God’s wrath justly deserved because of all our betrayal, scamming, mockings, crucifying, false witness, deceptions, putting on trial, tempting/testings/demandings against God as demonstrated by our treatment of other folks. You see, humanity is not nice, sweet or innocent - are we? We need a savior to save us from ourselves by placing simple trust in the savoir to save us that begins by a simple prayer revealed in Luke 18:13 so we can go and do likewise and find life (John 3:14-21)

Lastly, Storyteller, you asked about the Trinity of the Godhead. There is no easy answer on this and the best I can do is to give you a simple illustration from nature so you can grasp it a bit better. However weak this illustration is, may the Lord help you and others begin to understand the Godhead Trinity better:

Take an orange and cut it in half and what do you see?

You have Orange pealing, Orange fruit, and Orange juice. Each is still all Orange and the Orange is one yet it has three: Orange pealing, Orange fruit, and Orange juice that make the Orange one. Correct?

You cannot separate the essence and nature Orange from its pealing, its fruit, or its juice - it is all Orange. However, the Orange pealing, Orange fruit, and Orange juice has it own personalty in that one is that of covering/pealing, the Fruit, and the juice. Each are coequal to each other, yet, each has its own personality. Think of it as the Orange sending forth its fruit to do a task and then returning and you might begin to grasp the reality of the Christian Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity through this weak example from an Orange.

Blessings!
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Re: The Trinity in the End Times

#6

Post by Storyteller » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:28 am

That post made me cry BW, I have no idea why.

I love the analogy of an orange. I actually don't have too much of a problem understanding the Trinity. I thought of water. Water, steam and ice, all still H2O. Three different things apparently but all water.

There is a lot in your post for me to ponder over, thank you :)
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: The Trinity in the End Times

#7

Post by RickD » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:38 am

Storyteller wrote:That post made me cry BW, I have no idea why.

I love the analogy of an orange. I actually don't have too much of a problem understanding the Trinity. I thought of water. Water, steam and ice, all still H2O. Three different things apparently but all water.

There is a lot in your post for me to ponder over, thank you :)
I know all analogies we use to compare to the Trinity fail in some place, but I always liked this one:
Understanding the Trinity

As you stand by the shore of the sea, as far as your eyes can see and beyond is the mighty ocean. It is an entity of enormous power, sometimes as still and calm as a tropical pool, sometimes rising in fury to smash those who dare to intrude upon it.

As you observe, a swell of water rises offshore. The wave gathers momentum as it approaches the beach. Although it remains a part of the sea it has a life of its own. Then, after crashing high upon the shore, it returns to the sea from which it came. As a wave it had its own identity, but never was it separate from the sea.

Just as Jesus came from the Father and returned to the Father, He had - and still has - an identity of His own. The wave was never separate from the sea, just as Jesus was never separate from the Father. Just as the wave exemplifies the personality of the sea, Jesus is the personality of God the Father. If you have seen a wave, then you must have seen the sea. If you have seen Jesus, you have also seen the Father.

And as you stand beside the shore, you become aware of another part of the sea. The salt air which invigorates you is also an integral part of the sea. It, too, has a separate existence from the sea, but is very much one with it. It penetrates everywhere and everything within miles of the coastline. As you approach the beach it is the signal that the sea is not far away. In fact, it is the sea - reaching out to you through the air.

This is exactly what the Holy Spirit does. Just as the salt air draws men to the sea, the Holy Spirit draws men to the Father through Jesus Christ. The Spirit, although having a separate existence, is not separate from the Godhead.

I have used this simple example for several years now. People seem to be able to understand better the concept of the Trinity through the parallel relationship of sea and wave and salt air representing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit than by any of my previous attempts to explain it.

Children, especially, are quick to grasp the meaning of this "parable" approach to the mystery of the Trinity. I suppose we older and more sophisticated adults should not be totally surprised at this. After all, the Bible tells us that "a little child shall lead them."
From this link:http://www.answering-islam.org/Trinity/trin3.html
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Re: The Trinity in the End Times

#8

Post by B. W. » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:26 am

Storyteller wrote:That post made me cry BW, I have no idea why.

I love the analogy of an orange. I actually don't have too much of a problem understanding the Trinity. I thought of water. Water, steam and ice, all still H2O. Three different things apparently but all water.

There is a lot in your post for me to ponder over, thank you :)
That is the power of the Gospel!
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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