salvation and works

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Storyteller
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Re: salvation and works

#46

Post by Storyteller » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:11 am

Persecution isn`t always death. It can be ridicule or abuse for what we believe in. It can mean we may become alienated from those close to us that don`t share our beliefs. Not necessarily death.

I think perhaps what you are trying to say is that if we are Christians we will try and do right, even when we want to sin. If so, I agree with you. Of course we should all try and do good works, and not because we fear we can lose our salvation but because we love God.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: salvation and works

#47

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:28 am

jpbg33 wrote:Actually that can not be because every Christian must carry there cross. That statement was for every Christian not just for the ones that are be killed. We put all pick up our cross or we are not following Jesus. Paul said he crucified the flesh daily. Carrying your cross is about doing right even though your flesh doesn't wont to.
Actually it can be. A cross as a metaphor more closely resembles persecution than it does good works, but I see no reason why it can't imply both. As was stated, persecution doesn't necessarily mean death.
You really have an issue with metaphor, don't you?

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Re: salvation and works

#48

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:04 am

I do think it is talking about persecution and work both.

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Re: salvation and works

#49

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:53 pm

Read Galatians chapter 3
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: salvation and works

#50

Post by 1over137 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:43 pm

jpbg33 wrote:It is not works salvation to say that if you are saved then you will be doing your works it is consequential salvation. Which is different. One you do to be the other one you do because you are. I believe you do because you are. If you really love someone then you will try and please them all you can and if you find you have fell in some way you will apologize and start trying to please the one you love again. If you just do what you wont to do even though it hurts the person you say you love. Then you really do not love that person. The same is true with our Christian walk. If we are really Christians then we will live like one or we are not one.
Believers will try to live sinlessly or will live sinlessly?
And how much time they are allowed till they realize their sins and apologize?
Days, months, years, whole life?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: salvation and works

#51

Post by jlay » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:38 am

The interesting thing here is that if you are TRYING to live sinless, you are in fact sinning. Why? Because your entire concept of sin is based in conforming to an outside standard. (living like a Christian) Do this, don't do that. This is self-sourced. In other words, it's up to me to do this and don't do that. And if I really, really, really love God, then I won't do this and I will do that.
How is that working for you? There are really only two options. You are honest that you are failing, or you become self-righteous and you judge others who don't do the things you do, and do the things you don't do. You set yourself up as a fruit inspector, which is exactly what you have done in this thread. The scary thing is that Jesus says, judge not, lest ye be judged. And how you measure out judgment, then it will be measured to you. In other words, if you say salvation is........then that is EXACTLY how your salvation will be judged. You say that salvation is judged on whether one is, "living like a Christian." Interesting. How does one live like a Christian? What does that mean? Please, my eternal fate is hanging in the balance and I need specific details on how to live like a Christian. Is there a place in the Bible that says, "How to live like a Christian?" If so, please point me there. Maybe you could give us specific examples of how you are living like a Christian and then we can follow you, since you obviously believe that you are living like a Christian and we should all stop believing that faith alone is enough and start acting like you. You say that we are to pick up our cross and follow Jesus. Ok, how are you doing that in your life?

Did you know that after the crucifixion of Jesus the New Testament never instructs anyone to "follow" Christ ever again. When Jesus called to Peter, Matthew and the others, "follow me," what did He mean? He meant, follow Him. Literally. If He went to Capernaum, they followed Him. If He went to Jerusalem they followed Him. So, how do we pick up our cross and follow Him? If you are doing this, then it should be quite simple to instruct us on how to do this today. Or, have you perhaps spiritualized a teaching meant for contemporary disciples of Jesus, and attempted to apply it to your own life? Contextually, it does say, that Jesus was speaking to His disciples. (John 16:24) Yet, in all of Paul's letters (Romans through Philemon), not once are we told to be disciples. Never. And yet, Paul unpacks more doctrine on salvation and Christian living than anyone. Interesting?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: salvation and works

#52

Post by jpbg33 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:54 am

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
1Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:


You can see in these verses that we are still to be following Jesus.

Storyteller

That is exactly what I am trying to say.


Another way to put is "if wonting to do right is work for you then you are not a real Christian".

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Re: salvation and works

#53

Post by RickD » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:13 am

jpbg33 wrote:
Another way to put is "if wonting to do right is work for you then you are not a real Christian".
This is just flat out wrong! We have a sin nature, the flesh, that is a part of us. I struggle with the flesh everyday of my life. There are times that I just don't want to do right.

My spirit is willing, but my flesh is weak.

You are still putting conditions on salvation that God never put there. You are putting a yoke on believers' backs, that Christ took away.

Jpbg,

May I ask how old you are, and how long ago you trusted Christ for salvation?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: salvation and works

#54

Post by Storyteller » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:16 am

I think what he is trying to say that as Christians we want to do good works. If we don't WANT to do good then how can we claim to be Christian?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: salvation and works

#55

Post by jpbg33 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:18 am

I ma now 37 and according to how you believe sense I was a small boy.

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Re: salvation and works

#56

Post by jpbg33 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:25 am

That is right Paul said he crucified the flesh daily. Why did he crucify the flesh daily if it wasn't something he wonted to do as a Christian? I'm not saying you will not desire to sin ever again but that you will love God so much that because of your love for God that you will not wont to sin.

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Re: salvation and works

#57

Post by RickD » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:33 am

Storyteller wrote:I think what he is trying to say that as Christians we want to do good works. If we don't WANT to do good then how can we claim to be Christian?
Annette,

I know that's what he's saying. And I'm saying that it's a condition that is not there regarding salvation. I'm saying, that if a believer abides in Christ, or continues to trust him, we will want to do good, more and more. Or, if we abide in Christ, we will grow as believers.

It's just not automatic as jpbg suggests. As a believer, we need to make a choice to abide in Christ, or live according to the flesh. It has nothing to do with losing salvation. But it has everything to do with growing in Christ.

Think of the difference as one who abides, has a living faith. And one who doesn't, has a dead faith. The one with a dead faith, still has faith(is still a believer, with eternal life). But dead faith is just unproductive. Just like when someone says she is living in a dead marriage. She's still married, but there's no growth.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: salvation and works

#58

Post by RickD » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:42 am

jpbg33 wrote:That is right Paul said he crucified the flesh daily. Why did he crucify the flesh daily if it wasn't something he wonted to do as a Christian? I'm not saying you will not desire to sin ever again but that you will love God so much that because of your love for God that you will not wont to sin.
Or maybe because he knew that if he lived according to the flesh, and not the spirit, he would be unproductive.

My spirit doesn't want to sin. My flesh does. It's like a civil war inside myself.

So, in one sense you are absolutely correct. Our spirit wants to do God's will. To love Him and others.

But you are missing the sin nature. The flesh. Becoming a believer doesn't eliminate the sin nature from us here on earth.

The more a believer grows in Christ, continues to trust him, the more a believer desires to do good. But it's not automatic! Sure we have the Holy Spirit in us now. But we still need to make an effort to grow.

There's no automatic switch that gets flipped on in a believer, that makes us not want to sin ever again.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: salvation and works

#59

Post by jpbg33 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:23 am

We are growing in our knowledge growing in grace is not talking about our love growing to the point that we will do right. It isn't that I love him more so I guess I love him enough to stop doing this then later on I love him more so I guess now I will give him this to. But it is that we are growing in the knowledge of how to please him. It is like when I get saved I do not know everything about God right then but I love him so I do what I know. Then as I read the bible and learn more about God. I find more way to please him and as I learn more I do more because I love God. that is what growing In grace is. It is not talking about your love growing to a point to do right. It will grow if you are a Christian but Jesus said you must love God more then your self or anyone else. So when you are saved that is where your love is it is at the point that you will want to do anything God wants you to do and from there it gets grater.

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Re: salvation and works

#60

Post by RickD » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:46 am

jpbg33 wrote:We are growing in our knowledge growing in grace is not talking about our love growing to the point that we will do right. It isn't that I love him more so I guess I love him enough to stop doing this then later on I love him more so I guess now I will give him this to. But it is that we are growing in the knowledge of how to please him. It is like when I get saved I do not know everything about God right then but I love him so I do what I know. Then as I read the bible and learn more about God. I find more way to please him and as I learn more I do more because I love God. that is what growing In grace is. It is not talking about your love growing to a point to do right. It will grow if you are a Christian but Jesus said you must love God more then your self or anyone else. So when you are saved that is where your love is it is at the point that you will want to do anything God wants you to do and from there it gets grater.
That is the way it should be. But again, it isn't automatic.

Salvation in unconditional as far as us having to do anything to keep it. It's God's promise.

Sanctification, or growing in Christ in this life, takes our cooperation with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

There's salvation, and sanctification. You are conflating the two. You are making growth in Christ, and your definition of loving God, a necessary part of salvation, when it's not.

Salvation comes by Grace, simply by trusting Christ for salvation. There are no conditions attached to it.

Notice John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


Also notice what it DOES NOT say. It does not say:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him, AND DOES GOOD WORKS, shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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