salvation and works

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
Post Reply
jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

salvation and works

#1

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:24 pm

I'm not wanting to talk about if ones saved always saved is right or not

I am simply wanting to know how is believe that you don't live in sin after you are saved mean that it is by works.

I know that you cannot work your way in to salvation and that once you are saved that you can not do any works to stay saved
but I do believe that if you are saved then you will be living as right as you know to live. Not that you are doing it to be saved
but because you love God and want to please him.

I am also not saying that once you are saved you will not make mistakes we are human so most likely we will.

But what I want to know is how is it wrong to say that if you are saved you want live a sinful life and that if you are living a sinful
life then that is evidence that you are not saved.

I am also not asking if you loosed your salvation or not that is beside the point, and is being discussed in other posts.

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3053
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 340 times

Re: salvation and works

#2

Post by Storyteller » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:41 pm

I don't think we can live a totally sin free life, even after being saved, as we are still failable (is that the right word?) but we are forgiven through the grace of Christ.
I think, perhaps, it's important to confess our sins to God and repent, on a regular basis.

I have only recently come to God but I think that we can live our lives with a degree of sin because we have been saved. God knows what is in our hearts.

Being saved does not mean that we will not sin again, it means we are forgiven.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: salvation and works

#3

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:29 pm

jpbg33 wrote:
But what I want to know is how is it wrong to say that if you are saved you want live a sinful life and that if you are living a sinful
life then that is evidence that you are not saved.
Because that is a works based salvation, your salvation would be resting on you doing something or not doing something, rather than resting on what Christ did.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

Re: salvation and works

#4

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:57 pm

Yes I do see that when we are saved we are still human and make mistake But to do wrong because we can I don't believe that is right. I also believe we can live a sinless life after we are saved because God said he has given us the power to overcome, but I do not believe we will live a sinless live after we are saved. There is a difference in being able to do something and doing it. so I believe we are able but we do not live a completely sinless life. But if someone says they are saved and lives a sinful life is he really saved whether he was before or not that really doesn't matter, but at the point that he is living in open sin is he really saved.

And I am not saying he is not saved because of his sin but rather he is sinning because he is not saved

an apple is not a good apple because the meat of the apple is white but the meat of the apple is white because it is a good apple.

The same I think is true of Christians we are not Christians because we do not sin but we do not sin because we are Christians.
we may mass up that is because we are humans also but we do not have to because God gave us the power to overcome.

I also believe Christians will not live in open sin.

it is like gravity what goes up must come back down. Whether it has energy to go down on its on or not with out any effort of its on it will come
back down.

That is what I think Christian living is us as people can do nothing to be saved or stay saved but if we are saved our salvation will manifest its presents in our
works and if we are saved we will live as sinless as we possible can. Not to be saved or to keep salvation but because we are saved

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3053
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 340 times

Re: salvation and works

#5

Post by Storyteller » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:15 pm

jpbg33 wrote:Yes I do see that when we are saved we are still human and make mistake But to do wrong because we can I don't believe that is right. I also believe we can live a sinless life after we are saved because God said he has given us the power to overcome, but I do not believe we will live a sinless live after we are saved. There is a difference in being able to do something and doing it. so I believe we are able but we do not live a completely sinless life. But if someone says they are saved and lives a sinful life is he really saved whether he was before or not that really doesn't matter, but at the point that he is living in open sin is he really saved.

And I am not saying he is not saved because of his sin but rather he is sinning because he is not saved

an apple is not a good apple because the meat of the apple is white but the meat of the apple is white because it is a good apple.

The same I think is true of Christians we are not Christians because we do not sin but we do not sin because we are Christians.
we may mass up that is because we are humans also but we do not have to because God gave us the power to overcome.

I also believe Christians will not live in open sin.

it is like gravity what goes up must come back down. Whether it has energy to go down on its on or not with out any effort of its on it will come
back down.

That is what I think Christian living is us as people can do nothing to be saved or stay saved but if we are saved our salvation will manifest its presents in our
works and if we are saved we will live as sinless as we possible can. Not to be saved or to keep salvation but because we are saved
Sorry, trying to respond to bits of your posts, difficult on kindle
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: salvation and works

#6

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:42 pm

jpbg33 wrote:Yes I do see that when we are saved we are still human and make mistake But to do wrong because we can I don't believe that is right. I also believe we can live a sinless life after we are saved because God said he has given us the power to overcome, but I do not believe we will live a sinless live after we are saved. There is a difference in being able to do something and doing it. so I believe we are able but we do not live a completely sinless life. But if someone says they are saved and lives a sinful life is he really saved whether he was before or not that really doesn't matter, but at the point that he is living in open sin is he really saved.

And I am not saying he is not saved because of his sin but rather he is sinning because he is not saved
Do you think there will be any day in your life where you have not sinned?
an apple is not a good apple because the meat of the apple is white but the meat of the apple is white because it is a good apple.
I have eaten plenty of good apples that had blemishes, I just cut them out, the same way the Christ will wash us clean.

The same I think is true of Christians we are not Christians because we do not sin but we do not sin because we are Christians.
So you do not sin ever?

I also believe Christians will not live in open sin.
I have never met a Christian that I have never seen sinning.
That is what I think Christian living is us as people can do nothing to be saved or stay saved but if we are saved our salvation will manifest its presents in our
works and if we are saved we will live as sinless as we possible can. Not to be saved or to keep salvation but because we are saved
Note now you say as we possibly can, so yes we can sin and still be saved, the real questions is should we sin and of course the answer is no, but we do anyway, it's almost like we need a saviour. :jesus:
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

User avatar
melanie
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1411
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 3:18 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Has liked: 96 times
Been liked: 209 times

Re: salvation and works

#7

Post by melanie » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:10 pm

jpbg33 wrote:Yes I do see that when we are saved we are still human and make mistake But to do wrong because we can I don't believe that is right. I also believe we can live a sinless life after we are saved because God said he has given us the power to overcome, but I do not believe we will live a sinless live after we are saved. There is a difference in being able to do something and doing it. so I believe we are able but we do not live a completely sinless life. But if someone says they are saved and lives a sinful life is he really saved whether he was before or not that really doesn't matter, but at the point that he is living in open sin is he really saved.

And I am not saying he is not saved because of his sin but rather he is sinning because he is not saved

an apple is not a good apple because the meat of the apple is white but the meat of the apple is white because it is a good apple.

The same I think is true of Christians we are not Christians because we do not sin but we do not sin because we are Christians.
we may mass up that is because we are humans also but we do not have to because God gave us the power to overcome.

I also believe Christians will not live in open sin.

it is like gravity what goes up must come back down. Whether it has energy to go down on its on or not with out any effort of its on it will come
back down.

That is what I think Christian living is us as people can do nothing to be saved or stay saved but if we are saved our salvation will manifest its presents in our
works and if we are saved we will live as sinless as we possible can. Not to be saved or to keep salvation but because we are saved
You recognise that it is impossible to live without sin,that mistakes will be made along the way but the evidence of an unsaved person is to live with sin? Or perhaps live in sin, so where does the distinction lie?
The evidence of an unsaved person is to live without Christ in their heart. That is a matter of the heart that only God can possibly know.
Looking outwardly at the supposedly sinless actions of a professing christian does not in any way expose what lies beneath those 'good works'. The condition of their heart. There is a difference. A big difference.
A difference that we could not possibly know by our observations. I don't think we have the right to judge the condition of a person's heart and if they are saved based on their outwardly actions.

Jesus came here for the least of us. Those that the world and even the 'church' look down upon, using the struggles and faults of others to exhalt their own percieved worthiness and 'goodness'
Like the Pharisee and the tax collector.
'Thank you God that I am sinless, that I am not like these other people living in sin'
'Forgive me Father for being so sinful, for making the same mistakes over again, for being wretched and not at all worthy'
Pride vs humility

We all sin. Some by pride and arrogance more so than outwardly action. Others by making repeated obvious sins but with a heart of humilty.

Jesus said it was the tax collector who held favour with God.

We don't know the burdens of life a person may carry on their shoulders. Some people have been dealt the roughest of blows.
The girl who was molested during her childhood and is so screwed up on such a deep, psychological level that those scars are carried throughout her life. People see her as sexually promiscuous and easy but she is just a women caught in that child's pain.
The drunk on the street who begs for money then spends it on booze. Who lives through a lifetime of mockery but shares what little food he gets with anyone else around him in need.
The drug addict who grew up always being told they were unworthy, nothing and of no importance and no matter how hard they try and escape the lifestyle they can't break their internal dialogue which always tells them they are worthless and not meant for anything more from life. It seems that an uncaring, judgmental public usually backs it up.
Of course The Almighty can turn around people's lives in the most wonderous of ways, we hear stories of such everyday, some of us may know people who have done so or even have stories of our own but it is for some a long process. It is hard for those that hold no love for themselves to believe that God loves them so much that he can heal them.
That does not mean they do not love God.
It does not mean they are not believers.
It does not mean that their outward failure, their obvious sinful lifestyle will keep them out of Gods embrace and heavenly Kingdom.
I personally have spoken to both drug addicts and drunks who believe in Jesus, wholeheartedly. I pray that they heal and grow in faith to overcome their demons but far be it for me or anyone to say that these people are not saved.

You know I have also in past years known 'christians' who wear their faith very openly. Jesus loves you bumper stickers, church every Sunday, they partake in prayer vigils for the less fortunate, they donate to the church and ministries, they seem to be doing all the right things but yet I have heard the most judgmental things come out from their mouths.
Sure they will donate a whole heap of money to ministries and charities but yet mock the drunken bum, refuse to 'support' his sinful lifestyle not even considering to buy the poor bloke a sandwich and sit down and share some company and a smile or two with him. They will point out the prostitutes and drug addicts to their children and comment on how 'not to be, how this is how people live without God in their lives' never considering to teach their children empathy, compassion and love. To teach that although they have lost their way, we are all a reflection of God and we are never to exhalt ourselves above anyone.

Love and humilty cannot be so easily observed at times. Those that hold the most can be the very least of us.

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: salvation and works

#8

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:00 pm

Thank you for your post Mel, being a former drug addict I know exactly what you are talking about and also being connected with people from the local AA meeting gives me an insight into the struggles of other people, it breaks my heart when I hear their stories. :crying:

Never judge a man until you have walked a few miles in their shoes. y@};-
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 349 times

Re: salvation and works

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:40 am

God decides who is saved and who isn't.
I think it is best to accept that we don't know for sure and it isn't our call to make ( Thank God for that).
The only thing that is ever asked of us is to believe and listen to Christ.

jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

Re: salvation and works

#10

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:08 am

I not saying it is right to judge but to know that someone is not a Christian is not the same as telling someone there not a Christian. I think if someone tells you they are a Christian then who are we to tell them they are not, but on the same token God may speak though someone and tell someone they are not a Christian. He hasn't spoken though me that way yet But he is God and if he wants to he can. Knowing if someone is saved is different we can know if someone is saved or not. The bible says "Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. ". So knowing
if someone is a Christian or not is possible and not the same as judging.

And about the apple you are right we do eat apple that may have a small bad spot in them but we do not eat the bad with the good we cut the dad out and eat the good part and that is how we should be living our live we should let God clean any bad spots that we have out before we present our selves him.

one other thing is Jesus knows who is going to heaven and who isn't, and if you say that saying "to go to heaven you must be doing the will of the Father" is salvation by works then by all means tell me I am teaching salvation by works. I had rather be accused of teaching work based salvation and be teach the same thing as Jesus then to be teaching that it is ok to sin like the devil.

But to say that if you are saved you will stop sinning is not works salvation, but o say that you do it in and of your self is. That is not what I am saying I am saying that God give us the ability to overcome. the bible says in every temptation he give us a way out. So if every time we are tempted we are given a way our then the possibility is there that we can live with out sinning.

One other thing there has been many days that I have live with out sinning on that particular day. I will even go as far as to say this if you are sinning on a day to day bases then you are not saved. I am not talking about people that are addicted to drugs or alcohol. Obviously some people get them selves messed up pretty bad and some times it takes some people some time to get there lives back together but once God lets you know you should not be living that way then if your are not at least trying to quite I do not see much hope that you are really saved.

User avatar
Rob
Valued Member
Posts: 326
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:26 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: salvation and works

#11

Post by Rob » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:46 am

You sound borderline Pelagian.

Do you truly love God with all your heart, soul, and mind every moment of every day? Is there ever a moment when you do not love God with all of one of those things?

jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

Re: salvation and works

#12

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:07 am

Of cores I love God with all my heart that is why I cry to do right all the time. I make mistake though but not every day. And to believe you have to sin because you are human is not from the bible.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: salvation and works

#13

Post by B. W. » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:31 am

jpbg33 wrote:...But what I want to know is how is it wrong to say that if you are saved you want live a sinful life and that if you are living a sinful
life then that is evidence that you are not saved.

I am also not asking if you loosed your salvation or not that is beside the point, and is being discussed in other posts.
The answer to this is found within the bible over and over again. However, people don't see it.

Numbers chapters Eleven and Twelve address this as do other places. Numbers 11:4 mentions a rabble of mixed people fled Egypt along with the Israelites. These folks could have been other slaves from other countries such as Ethiopia, etc, and some may have been Egyptians who joined Israelites to escape the plagues and join in for the plunder and perks of the covenant, Exodus 12:38. They were not of Israel and joined in to temp the Israelites to go back to Egypt because of food and used strong desires = lust to do so and justified this lust as okay - who needs God. We have those kind of folks in the church today, saying it is okay to mix with the world cause God is all wuvy dovey cuddly and cute and would never hold to account what one does or how they live. Our churches are a mess of apathy while darkness closes in all around because of this.

Apostle John wrote this in 1 John 2:19, They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. NKJV

Again, in Hebrews chapter 10 the context mentions the forsaking of the assembly due to persecution. That chapter is addressing the issues of those in the Assembly who were turning in people who they hung out with in the local area Church to the authorities to be persecuted and most likely killed. These folks drifted back to the OT animal sacrifices and taught others should do the same in the local assembly to avoid persecution. They were not true Christians, just as the rabble were not true Jews in Number 11 but a rabble sowing discord amongst the brethren. In Hebrews 10:27 it mention that the same Taberah (burning) that happened in Numbers 11:1,2,3,4 awaits those sowing the same discord. Those that betrayed their friend to the authorities were not Christians but rabble who attached themselves to Christianity in order to benefit form the perks and free meals (lovefeast) but when adversity strikes, they fell back to the old ways of living without remorse.

There are many places that mention this principle such as Romans 9:6 and Revelation chapters two and three. Therefore, the bible answers this in this way, all who claim to be belong to God do not. Some are merely rabble, who mix the ways of the world into the church, using governing authorities to enforce this mix, and betray those who adhere to the Teaching of Jesus. Some lost their first love, others mix weirdness into the church, others are lukewarm. In the NT, as opposed to the OT, such folks are granted more time to turn to Christ and escape the burning they face if they do not cease.

2 Tim 2:19 states what truth and how does it realistically apply? It applies by the Hebrews 12:5-8 and the 1 John 1:9 way. It involves progressively become more free from sins every season in this mortal life and finding the true freedom Christ brings. You shine more light than darkness in many ways.

We may not know by looking at a person if they are saved or not, but God knows and sends forth test to separate the wheat from the chaff. The majority of individuals responding here, let me say, do have enough evidence against you to convict you of being a christian in any court of law by what you have written and said and how you stand for the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ despite your issues and shortcomings and fights with sins. In that rejoice.

The other lesson to learn from Numbers chapters 11 and 12 is this: God deals with rabble one way and those in his house another way that does not forsake the Covenant of Blood, which in our case, the blood shed on the Cross to those he saved to the uttermost.

As Pauls mentioned - God knows who are his and I add to this so does the person in time, realize that there is enough evidence against you to convict you of being a christian in any court of law despite your issues and shortcomings and fights with sins. In that rejoice!

Now let me close with this thought - this is not works based salvation and I pray folks stop assuming that. The Church is dysfunctional, apathetic, weak, weird, petty - how is the one you attend? Have you left it do to these things and are now alone? What is the cause of this? Well, how about the fear of works that is so prominent in modern western christian thought that accepts and teaches it is acceptable to be lukewarm, tepid with filth, apathetic, rich and in need of nothing. That does not bode well for the Laodiceans...

You know, when you love someone, you desire to do what pleases them, naturally. In that we rejoice but woe to us for loving God and wanting to do things for him naturally as that is evil works! Oh the messages spreading from the rabble outside the camp into the camp, stop deceiving the people of God that any display of loving God is a work! Shut up...

Lord send your fire soon...
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3053
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 340 times

Re: salvation and works

#14

Post by Storyteller » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:39 am

I dont know why but that really moved me.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21719
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 206 times
Been liked: 1118 times

Re: salvation and works

#15

Post by RickD » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:56 am

B. W. wrote:
You know, when you love someone, you desire to do what pleases them, naturally. In that we rejoice but woe to us for loving God and wanting to do things for him naturally as that is evil works! Oh the messages spreading from the rabble outside the camp into the camp, stop deceiving the people of God that any display of loving God is a work! Shut up...
B. W.,

What kind of church or people are you associating with that is saying that doing works as a believer is evil? And who is saying that loving God and others is a work to be looked down upon. Tbh,
I've never known anyone who thought that way. Certainly nobody here is saying that believers should not do good works! Who are you talking about?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Post Reply