Question on faith

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Audie
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Question on faith

#1

Post by Audie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:33 am

I often see people say that God's word says thus and so, so they will have faith in God's word, not in (insert science, man's reasoning, etc). It is presented as that their take on something is solidly backed up by God's words.

I wonder if it isnt often that they have faith in themselves, as having the sure power to know just what God meant by what is in the Bible.


How would anyone know which is which?

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Canuckster1127
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Re: Question on faith

#2

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:51 am

Audie wrote:I often see people say that God's word says thus and so, so they will have faith in God's word, not in (insert science, man's reasoning, etc). It is presented as that their take on something is solidly backed up by God's words.

I wonder if it isnt often that they have faith in themselves, as having the sure power to know just what God meant by what is in the Bible.


How would anyone know which is which?
That's an excellent insight and an excellent question. A lot of misunderstanding takes place in my opinion in the use of the term "God's Word." The phrase is used in the New Testament and in the early church far more to refer to Jesus Christ and the message of the Gospel which is rooted in Jesus Christ. It's been used in much of evangelicalism to refer to the Bible as the written equivalent of Jesus Himself and I believe that is misplaced. I say that without diminishing the importance of Scripture, but I think it is possible to become Biblicists rather than Christians (literally little Christs).

The fact is that the Bible is approached by men and women with a interpretive filter in mind and we use that filter to interpret and draw meaning from it. It's not uncommon that particular denominations and approaches to Scripture form their own little mini-canon within Scripture by proof-texting things and ignoring or diminishing other portions of Scripture that don't fit with the systematic form of interpretation they've adopted.

There is a real danger of Spiritual Pride in those who presume to have the whole of truth rooted in their understanding of Scripture and who pretty much give lip service to the person of Jesus Christ as a figure head or symbol rather than the living word who is active and powerful in bringing us to truth which is in fact, Himself.

I wish I could give you more than that but the more I've grown in this area, the less confidence I put even in my own understandings. It's not that things can't be understood, but when we presume to have arrived at full knowledge then we can no longer grow.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Question on faith

#3

Post by B. W. » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:05 am

Audie wrote:I often see people say that God's word says thus and so, so they will have faith in God's word, not in (insert science, man's reasoning, etc). It is presented as that their take on something is solidly backed up by God's words.

I wonder if it isnt often that they have faith in themselves, as having the sure power to know just what God meant by what is in the Bible.

How would anyone know which is which?
Being a former atheist and a militant one at that and then coming to Jesus I discovered how real the Holy Spirit is when he teaches. So it is more on relationship with the living God in a manner that is omni-personal, as Canuckster1127 mentioned. The Lord uses the bible to reveal to us himself in a wide range of ways that serve as a guide to the blind teaching how to see. From that living relationship we discover, by him, how each number has meaning in the bible that tell his story, as do the meanings of names. Even the colors mentioned in the bible and items in the old temple reveal things that all connect to Christ and all add up to this: that a superior intelligence inspired this amazing book beyond all doubt. In this, you are blind too, as I once was.

So you ask if it isn't all just about having faith in oneself is the course of power in how the bible is interpreted or not. So I answer with a question I once asked you earlier:

You claimed earlier to be good but are you perfect?
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
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Audie
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Re: Question on faith

#4

Post by Audie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:13 am

B. W. wrote:
Audie wrote:I often see people say that God's word says thus and so, so they will have faith in God's word, not in (insert science, man's reasoning, etc). It is presented as that their take on something is solidly backed up by God's words.

I wonder if it isnt often that they have faith in themselves, as having the sure power to know just what God meant by what is in the Bible.

How would anyone know which is which?
Being a former atheist and a militant one at that and then coming to Jesus I discovered how real the Holy Spirit is when he teaches. So it is more on relationship with the living God in a manner that is omni-personal, as Canuckster1127 mentioned. The Lord uses the bible to reveal to us himself in a wide range of ways that serve as a guide to the blind teaching how to see. From that living relationship we discover, by him, how each number has meaning in the bible that tell his story, as do the meanings of names. Even the colors mentioned in the bible and items in the old temple reveal things that all connect to Christ and all add up to this: that a superior intelligence inspired this amazing book beyond all doubt. In this, you are blind too, as I once was.

So you ask if it isn't all just about having faith in oneself is the course of power in how the bible is interpreted or not. So I answer with a question I once asked you earlier:

You claimed earlier to be good but are you perfect?
-
-
-
I've no idea what the line in bold means, sorry, but it is ungrammatical and I cannot interpret it. Nor do I know what "the course of power" might be.

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Re: Question on faith

#5

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:32 am

My faith in in THE word of God, Jesus Christ.
I have faith in HIM.
I understand that my interpretation of the written word of God, the bible, is a human one so it is, at best, adequate and at worse, wrong and because of that I have faith in my understanding of the bible based on how the holy spirit guides me BUT I am always aware that, as a human, my understanding can be wrong.
The written word of God is very important BUT it is NOT more important than the LIVING word of God, Jesus and the HS that guides us.

Audie
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Re: Question on faith

#6

Post by Audie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:28 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:My faith in in THE word of God, Jesus Christ.
I have faith in HIM.
I understand that my interpretation of the written word of God, the bible, is a human one so it is, at best, adequate and at worse, wrong and because of that I have faith in my understanding of the bible based on how the holy spirit guides me BUT I am always aware that, as a human, my understanding can be wrong.
The written word of God is very important BUT it is NOT more important than the LIVING word of God, Jesus and the HS that guides us.
That is what I am asking about. One finds that the spirit leads him here, another there, an opposite direction. Both are equally sincere.

Didnt mean to go this way here, but it comes up so naturally..see the part above, in bold.

Not all are as humble as you in this, of course, but here is the question that comes up:

How do you try to find out if you got it right?

Is it ever acceptable to interpret the Bible in terms of some outside source of info?
When, why, why not, etc?

PaulSacramento
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Re: Question on faith

#7

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:45 pm

Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:My faith in in THE word of God, Jesus Christ.
I have faith in HIM.
I understand that my interpretation of the written word of God, the bible, is a human one so it is, at best, adequate and at worse, wrong and because of that I have faith in my understanding of the bible based on how the holy spirit guides me BUT I am always aware that, as a human, my understanding can be wrong.
The written word of God is very important BUT it is NOT more important than the LIVING word of God, Jesus and the HS that guides us.
That is what I am asking about. One finds that the spirit leads him here, another there, an opposite direction. Both are equally sincere.

Didnt mean to go this way here, but it comes up so naturally..see the part above, in bold.

Not all are as humble as you in this, of course, but here is the question that comes up:

How do you try to find out if you got it right?

Is it ever acceptable to interpret the Bible in terms of some outside source of info?
When, why, why not, etc?
See, the spirit does NOT lead people in different directions BUT we as humans have different understandings and that is why we are told to be patient with each other.
Of course that isn't any different than humans having different views of the same things in other fields as well.

In regards t interpreting the bible, there are many fields and, IMO, the best way is to not just use one but various methods (such as textual criticism, the socio-historical method, etc).

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Re: Question on faith

#8

Post by Storyteller » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:46 pm

I haven't read a lot of the Bible, I know very little about YEC and OEC, creation or evolution but I still found God and he Holy Spirit led me to Jesus.

I question all the time if Im right, and good The answer is No but I am forgiven.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Question on faith

#9

Post by RickD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:38 pm

Storyteller wrote:I haven't read a lot of the Bible, I know very little about YEC and OEC, creation or evolution but I still found God and he Holy Spirit led me to Jesus.

I question all the time if Im right, and good The answer is No but I am forgiven.
You're on the right track. Keep reading the bible, and question whatever you want. That's how we learn and grow. :D
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Question on faith

#10

Post by Audie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:52 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:My faith in in THE word of God, Jesus Christ.
I have faith in HIM.
I understand that my interpretation of the written word of God, the bible, is a human one so it is, at best, adequate and at worse, wrong and because of that I have faith in my understanding of the bible based on how the holy spirit guides me BUT I am always aware that, as a human, my understanding can be wrong.
The written word of God is very important BUT it is NOT more important than the LIVING word of God, Jesus and the HS that guides us.
That is what I am asking about. One finds that the spirit leads him here, another there, an opposite direction. Both are equally sincere.

Didnt mean to go this way here, but it comes up so naturally..see the part above, in bold.

Not all are as humble as you in this, of course, but here is the question that comes up:

How do you try to find out if you got it right?

Is it ever acceptable to interpret the Bible in terms of some outside source of info?
When, why, why not, etc?
See, the spirit does NOT lead people in different directions BUT we as humans have different understandings and that is why we are told to be patient with each other.
Of course that isn't any different than humans having different views of the same things in other fields as well.

In regards t interpreting the bible, there are many fields and, IMO, the best way is to not just use one but various methods (such as textual criticism, the socio-historical method, etc).
No outside sources allowed?

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Re: Question on faith

#11

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:16 pm

Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:My faith in in THE word of God, Jesus Christ.
I have faith in HIM.
I understand that my interpretation of the written word of God, the bible, is a human one so it is, at best, adequate and at worse, wrong and because of that I have faith in my understanding of the bible based on how the holy spirit guides me BUT I am always aware that, as a human, my understanding can be wrong.
The written word of God is very important BUT it is NOT more important than the LIVING word of God, Jesus and the HS that guides us.
That is what I am asking about. One finds that the spirit leads him here, another there, an opposite direction. Both are equally sincere.

Didnt mean to go this way here, but it comes up so naturally..see the part above, in bold.

Not all are as humble as you in this, of course, but here is the question that comes up:

How do you try to find out if you got it right?

Is it ever acceptable to interpret the Bible in terms of some outside source of info?
When, why, why not, etc?
See, the spirit does NOT lead people in different directions BUT we as humans have different understandings and that is why we are told to be patient with each other.
Of course that isn't any different than humans having different views of the same things in other fields as well.

In regards t interpreting the bible, there are many fields and, IMO, the best way is to not just use one but various methods (such as textual criticism, the socio-historical method, etc).
No outside sources allowed?
God in my opinion is not confined to a book, he is called the living God for a reason, if he truly is living then he is speaking to us through everything. I have no issue with sources outside of the Bible, especially when it comes to science, understanding nature and reality is really just trying to understand the mind of God. I don't think anyone has it 100% right when it comes to belief and interpretation, we just don't have all the facts right now.

Anything that is done in the name of love, is never folly.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Question on faith

#12

Post by Silvertusk » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:04 am

Canuckster1127 wrote:
Audie wrote:I often see people say that God's word says thus and so, so they will have faith in God's word, not in (insert science, man's reasoning, etc). It is presented as that their take on something is solidly backed up by God's words.

I wonder if it isnt often that they have faith in themselves, as having the sure power to know just what God meant by what is in the Bible.


How would anyone know which is which?
That's an excellent insight and an excellent question. A lot of misunderstanding takes place in my opinion in the use of the term "God's Word." The phrase is used in the New Testament and in the early church far more to refer to Jesus Christ and the message of the Gospel which is rooted in Jesus Christ. It's been used in much of evangelicalism to refer to the Bible as the written equivalent of Jesus Himself and I believe that is misplaced. I say that without diminishing the importance of Scripture, but I think it is possible to become Biblicists rather than Christians (literally little Christs).

The fact is that the Bible is approached by men and women with a interpretive filter in mind and we use that filter to interpret and draw meaning from it. It's not uncommon that particular denominations and approaches to Scripture form their own little mini-canon within Scripture by proof-texting things and ignoring or diminishing other portions of Scripture that don't fit with the systematic form of interpretation they've adopted.

There is a real danger of Spiritual Pride in those who presume to have the whole of truth rooted in their understanding of Scripture and who pretty much give lip service to the person of Jesus Christ as a figure head or symbol rather than the living word who is active and powerful in bringing us to truth which is in fact, Himself.

I wish I could give you more than that but the more I've grown in this area, the less confidence I put even in my own understandings. It's not that things can't be understood, but when we presume to have arrived at full knowledge then we can no longer grow.
Not meaning to hijack this thread but...

Good to hear from you Canuckster!! Missed you man!

Okay carry on...

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Re: Question on faith

#13

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:12 am

Thanks Silvertusk. Good to be back and to see you too.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Question on faith

#14

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:39 am

Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:My faith in in THE word of God, Jesus Christ.
I have faith in HIM.
I understand that my interpretation of the written word of God, the bible, is a human one so it is, at best, adequate and at worse, wrong and because of that I have faith in my understanding of the bible based on how the holy spirit guides me BUT I am always aware that, as a human, my understanding can be wrong.
The written word of God is very important BUT it is NOT more important than the LIVING word of God, Jesus and the HS that guides us.
That is what I am asking about. One finds that the spirit leads him here, another there, an opposite direction. Both are equally sincere.

Didnt mean to go this way here, but it comes up so naturally..see the part above, in bold.

Not all are as humble as you in this, of course, but here is the question that comes up:

How do you try to find out if you got it right?

Is it ever acceptable to interpret the Bible in terms of some outside source of info?
When, why, why not, etc?
See, the spirit does NOT lead people in different directions BUT we as humans have different understandings and that is why we are told to be patient with each other.
Of course that isn't any different than humans having different views of the same things in other fields as well.

In regards t interpreting the bible, there are many fields and, IMO, the best way is to not just use one but various methods (such as textual criticism, the socio-historical method, etc).
No outside sources allowed?
Sure, why not?

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Re: Question on faith

#15

Post by melanie » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:06 am

There are some beliefs in christianity that are open to interpretation but the core message has been held by majority of christians for many years.
God's word trumps science and man's reasoning. Interpretation in some instances very well may not discredit them as such but it is not a defining factor.
Science and reasoning cannot explain a man walking on water, feeding five thousand from a few fish and loaves of bread, talking donkey's, a virgin birth, parting of seas and ressurection from death.
If someone interprets the bible to include current scientific theories then that is absolute right to do so, but you can't look at science as the authority on all that is possible and fit scripture around man's reasoning because the bible is full of the power of God completely outside of scientific explanation.
Just because science fails to explain biblical text does not make that text therefore unreasonable.
If that were the case we would question the very core message of Christianity, Jesus' death and resurrection.

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