Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

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jpbg33
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#961

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:10 am

In Hebrew 10:14 it is saying that Jesus died once for all our sins, and it is though that one sacrifice that we are perfected for all time. No matter how many times we have to go to him and confess our sins it is though that one sacrifice that we are perfected.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#962

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:02 am

jpbg33 wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:10 am
In Hebrew 10:14 it is saying that Jesus died once for all our sins, and it is though that one sacrifice that we are perfected for all time. No matter how many times we have to go to him and confess our sins it is though that one sacrifice that we are perfected.
So, we're not perfected for all time? We have to continue confessing our sins in order to stay perfected?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#963

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:01 am

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

what this verse is saying is that by the one sacrifice(Jesus dying on the cross) he hath perfected them that are sanctified.

You have to remember the context here. Paul was referring to the fact that under the old law the sacrifice was only good for one year then the sins that you had committed in the pass were remembered again and you had to do the same sacrifices over every year. he was saying that in the new covenant when you got forgiven from your sins, that the sins you had committed would be remembered no more. They would be gone for ever.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#964

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:35 am

jpbg33 wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:01 am
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

what this verse is saying is that by the one sacrifice(Jesus dying on the cross) he hath perfected them that are sanctified.

You have to remember the context here. Paul was referring to the fact that under the old law the sacrifice was only good for one year then the sins that you had committed in the pass were remembered again and you had to do the same sacrifices over every year. he was saying that in the new covenant when you got forgiven from your sins, that the sins you had committed would be remembered no more. They would be gone for ever.
So,

1) by his one sacrifice we who are sanctified, are perfected forever

And yet

2) we are not actually perfected forever, because we can lose salvation

And you don't see a contradiction there, between 1 and 2?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#965

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:32 pm

You are assuming that that verse is referring to losing or not losing your sanctification. that verse has nothing to do with losing or not losing your sanctification. that verse is just saying that for those that are sanctified when they were forgiven from there sins, there sins that they were forgiven of would never again be remembered.

Paul said that if you sin willfully after you have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but that you were on your way to hell.
What is Paul talking about remaineth no more sacrifice? If you remember he said the sacrifice was only for the sanctified. Now he said remaineth no more sacrifice for sins so that must mean that the person was sacrifice at one point but it stopped. So why did it stop? It says because of willful sin. So we can conclude that willful sin will cause you to lose you sanctification.


But if what you are trying to say is true then if the Jews had not sinned willfully after they received the truth then there would remain a sacrifice for there sins whether they got saved or not. It wouldn't matter what happened after they were sanctified they couldn't lose it and would not end up in hell.


That was not what Paul was saying. That is why Paul said the person was sanctified because at one point the person had sacrifice for his sins but it stopped. So he must have lost his sanctification. Sanctified people do not go to hell. Paul said this man was sanctified at one point and later was on his way to hell. So he had to have lost his sanctification.

Losing sanctification was not in verses 14 but in the later verses. Verse 14 was just saying who the sacrifice was for.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#966

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:59 pm

jpbg wrote:
You are assuming that that verse is referring to losing or not losing your sanctification...
Now I remember why I stopped responding to your posts the last time you were on the board.

You are the one claiming people can lose their salvation, I'm not.

Maybe someone else here will respond to you, but I personally want to keep my sanity.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#967

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:18 pm

it is hard to debate against the truth.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#968

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:34 pm

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

the bible say to get saved then live right it dose not say to get saved then it is ok to live wrong.

you will never find that it is ok to live wrong in the bible.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#969

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:48 pm

jpbg33 wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:34 pm
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

the bible say to get saved then live right it dose not say to get saved then it is ok to live wrong.

you will never find that it is ok to live wrong in the bible.
Strawman
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#970

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:48 pm

jpbg33 wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:18 pm
it is hard to debate against the truth.
And yet, you continue to try.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#971

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:38 pm

Good one didn't see that coming. Should have but didn't.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#972

Post by LittleHamster » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:58 pm

In Heb 10:29

'Sanctified' is one of those words that you need to let the context dictate it's usage. The word literally means 'set apart' and it can apply (and often does) to true believers... but can also apply to objects, places and even people that aren't saved! Look at the following examples of what is said to be sanctified in the Bible:

Nation of Israel (Exodus 19:10)
Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:23)
Breast of the Ram (Exodus 29:27)
The Priests (Exodus 29:41)
The Tabernacle (Exodus 29:36)

In the New Testament we have the interesting verse in 1 Cor 7:14

"For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy."

I can only take from this that where a believer is married to an unbeliever God sees the unbelieving partner (and any children) as 'set apart' or 'sanctified' because of the faith of their partner. Does this mean that the unbeliever is saved? No. But they are said to be sanctified or set apart. I think it would be fair to say that Judas was also 'set apart' as one of the 12 disciples to do the Lord's work, but not saved.

So Heb 10:29 is speaking of those that joined themselves to true believers in the church and in this sense were 'sanctified' or set apart. But they willfully left that going back on their initial belief and decision and went back to Judaism. They are apostates.

Concerning Heb 10:29, the well loved Bible teacher H.A Ironside says the following:

“There is an expression used in these verses that may still perplex and bewilder those who have not apprehended that profession is one thing, and possession another. … He who is sanctified by the one offering of Christ upon the cross, that is, by His precious blood, is perfected forever (Heb. 10:10, 14-19). But in this passage it is equally plain that one who counts the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, shall be forever lost. In order not to miss the true force of this for our souls, it is necessary that we give some attention to what we have already designated ‘positional sanctification.’ Of old all the people of Israel, and all who were associated with them, were set apart to God both on the night of the Passover and afterwards in the wilderness. But this did not necessarily imply a work of the Spirit in their souls. Many were doubtless in the blood-sprinkled houses that solemn night, when the destroying angel passed through to smite the unsheltered first-born, who had no real faith in God. Yet they were by the blood of the Lamb put in a place of blessing, a position where they shared in many hallowed privileges. So afterward with those who were under the cloud and passed through the sea, being baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All were in the same position. All shared the same outward blessings. But the wilderness was the place of testing, and soon proved who were real and who were not. At the present time God has no special nation, to be allied to which is to come into a position of outward nearness to Him. But He has a people who have been redeemed to Himself out of all kindreds and tongues and peoples and nations, by the precious blood of the Lamb of God. All who ally themselves by profession with that company are outwardly among the blood-sheltered: in this sense they are sanctified by the blood of the covenant. That blood stands for Christianity, which in its very essence is the proclamation of salvation through Christ’s atoning death. To take the Christian place therefore is like entering the blood-sprinkled house. All who are real, who have judged themselves before God, and truely confided in his grace, will remain in that house. If they go out, it proves their unreality and such can find no other sacrifice for sins; for all the typical offerings are done away in Christ. These are they of whom the apostle John speaks so solemnly: ‘They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us’ (1 John 2:19). As they were ever bereft of faith in the soul, they ‘went out,’ and thus did despite to the Spirit of grace, and counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith they were sanctified, an unholy thing. These sin wilfully, not in the sense of failing to walk uprightly merely, but as utterly abjuring, or apostatizing from, Christianity, after having become conversant with the glorious message it brings to lost men”


http://jesusplusnothing.com/questions/sanctified.htm
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#973

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:24 am

That was a well thought out reply.


There is still some mistakes in it. To be sanctified in the blood of Jesus is not the same as the husband and child being sanctified because of the wife. According to the sanctification in Hebrews 10 your sins were forgiven and you were made perfect. We know that the sins of the husband and the child that are not saved but are sanctified because of the wife are not forgiven. So the sanctification in Hebrews is not speaking of that type of sanctification, but of salvation. In Hebrews Paul is referring to poeple that are sanctified in the blood of Jesus in other words saved. We know that Paul was talking about a saved person because he said the person "trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing".So Paul said the person was sanctified in the blood of Jesus. So the person was saved. Then later after sinning wilfully was on his way to hell. Saved poeple do not go to hell.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#974

Post by RickD » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:03 am

jpbg wrote:
Saved poeple do not go to hell.
Amen!

You've finally seen the light!

Just when I was thinking you were hopelessly fighting against God and scripture, you've finally come around!

:clap:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#975

Post by LittleHamster » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:13 pm

RickD wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:03 am
jpbg wrote:
Saved poeple do not go to hell.
Amen!

You've finally seen the light!

Just when I was thinking you were hopelessly fighting against God and scripture, you've finally come around!

:clap:

Yay! I think he finally agrees - those in Heb 10:29 were never saved to begin with. They were given the opportunity but chose to trample on Jesus, treat the covenant with contempt and reject the free gift.
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