Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Rob
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Re: Eternal Security...

#61

Post by Rob » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:00 pm

What of 1 John 2:?
"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Also, what if I'm trying to do right sometimes, but other times I'm not really actively trying to do right? Am I saved only half the time?

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Re: Eternal Security...

#62

Post by Storyteller » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:10 pm

No, you sre saved all the time.

You are trying, that's what matters. We will never get it right in this lifetime, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Eternal Security...

#63

Post by melanie » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:52 pm

jpbg33 wrote:actually that is what the bible says "1Jn_3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.".
If I said something else this is what I meant " if we are saved then we will try not to sin and if we are not trying not to then we are not really saved ".

to the temptation thing No but if we do not repent but choose to live in our sin then that is unbelief and we will be cut off just like the Jews were cot off for unbelief.

If we are not trying to do right that is the evidence that we are not saved. Just as if you are not trying to please your wife then you must not love her. If you are not trying to please God you do not love him.
I am trying to understand where you are coming from.
We of course must strive to be the best reflection of Christ that we can. We can overcome sin through Jesus. Not perfectly but earnestly. What we are not capable of God is. There is victory over the world through Jesus. I have changed and grown tremendously,which I don't believe ever would have been possible on my own. It is a great thing to desire to please God and not to dissapoint.
But I fall short sometimes. Rather grandously at times. I know I have disappointed Him, I pray and try to do better next time and learn. It is a lifelong process of learning. God is patient and uses my mishaps as lessons.
My over-riding force to do better is because I love Him.
The guilt I feel when a stumble is because I have dissapointed Him. Not because my faith has faltered, or my belief in Jesus' salvation work on the cross has changed in anyway. Nothing can seperate me from the love of God, not even myself or my sins. I have confidence in that.
Peace in my faith. If everytime I sinned I was in fear of losing my salvation, questioning my faith and my place in Gods Kingdom I would be a mess. Striving towards a reward I thought I had to earn that I could never achieve on a life long, daily basis. Wednesday I might be secure in my salvation but by Friday I might be questioning it again. Living like that might make me strive to do better, I would have too but there is no peace there, there is no assurance and there is no faith in Gods unfaltering love and forgiveness. There is no faith in Jesus' redemptive work on the cross.
My striving to do better is because I love a God who loves me unconditoinally, who never turns his back, who never whips eternal security out from under me when I fail, who knows that I will fail and hung on a cross and died for me so that He could accomplish what I never can. That is what drives me to do better, to honour Him, not to try and earn something that is unachievable.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#64

Post by melanie » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:59 pm

Perhaps what you are speaking of is this yearning to do better, out of love for God.
But I think that it's important to remember that we don't know where a person is on their walk. What we percieve as a person failing might be them living towards victory compared to where they have come.
After all we are all a work in process .

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Re: Eternal Security...

#65

Post by Rob » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:02 pm

Storyteller wrote:No, you sre saved all the time.

You are trying, that's what matters. We will never get it right in this lifetime, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Thanks for the support, but I know- I'm just trying to get him to think about what the's saying.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#66

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:14 am

That is what I'm saying we mess up as Christians I know that I mess up a lot but that doesn't mean we have to. When I say backslide I am not referring to people that are growing in grace I am talking about people who are not growing in grace. And I know we don't know far shore if someone is saved or not only God knows that but we can have a good idea if someone is or not especially if we have been around there far a while. The bible doesn't say you can't separate your self from God it say that nothing else can. He was referring to it being a personal walk that was up to your faith not anyone else's.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#67

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:27 am

jpbg33 wrote:That is what I'm saying we mess up as Christians I know that I mess up a lot but that doesn't mean we have to. When I say backslide I am not referring to people that are growing in grace I am talking about people who are not growing in grace. And I know we don't know far shore if someone is saved or not only God knows that but we can have a good idea if someone is or not especially if we have been around there far a while. The bible doesn't say you can't separate your self from God it say that nothing else can. He was referring to it being a personal walk that was up to your faith not anyone else's.
Again, you're wrong. Your human reasoning is failing you.

Romans 8:38-39
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Aha! No created thing can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Jpbg33, Are you part of creation? Then you are included in "No created thing".

And I ask you again, is it possible that you are interpreting scripture wrong?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...

#68

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:31 am

Where does it say you can not separate your self from God. It isn't that verse that verse doesn't say any thing about our selves.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#69

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:43 am

jpbg33 wrote:Where does it say you can not separate your self from God. It isn't that verse that verse doesn't say any thing about our selves.
the verse says nothing in creation can separate us from the love of God...

When we are saved, God seals us with the Holy Spirit, as a guarantee of what is to come.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Take a moment to let that sink in. Once we are saved, God guarantees that we are saved. Even if we try to separate ourselves from God, He won't ever leave us! Salvation is a promise from God, for those who by faith, trust Christ for salvation. There are no conditions on that promise. God has sealed us. He owns us.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...

#70

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:20 pm

This is what the verses say "2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
That has nothing to do with loosing or not loosing your salvation. The other verse didn't say any thing God created because it didn't include yourself. If he wonted it to be in there he could have easily add "not even yourself". But he didn't. If once saved always saved was true why didn't Jesus teach it. He actually was teach to stop sinning or you would go to hell "Mat_5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.". You were to pluck it out so you would stop looking at things you that offend you. I guess Jesus was teaching qualifiers to." Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.". Another qualifier I guess. Yet another qualifier " Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. ". I guess I'm not alone with these so called qualifiers its me and Jesus.
sounds like pretty good company to me.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#71

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:09 pm

jpbg wrote:
This is what the verses say "2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
That has nothing to do with loosing or not loosing your salvation.
Of course it does! Once we are saved, God set His seal upon us. He gave us The Holy Spirit in our hearts as a deposit. A pledge. A promise that we are sealed forever in Him. We cannot lose salvation.
The other verse didn't say any thing God created because it didn't include yourself. If he wonted it to be in there he could have easily add "not even yourself". But he didn't.
The verse said nothing in creation. Does nothing not mean nothing?
If once saved always saved was true why didn't Jesus teach it.
He did

John 5:24, John 10:28, John 6:37, John 10:27-30
He actually was teach to stop sinning or you would go to hell "Matt 5:29
No he wasn't. Jesus was using hyperbole to show how disciples must deal with sin. We must avoid temptation as disciples. Not at a risk of losing salvation.
Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.". Another qualifier I guess.
This verse is talking about the cost of being a disciple of Christ. Not a believer. Trust Christ, you are a believer who has eternal life. Follow Christ and you are a disciple.
Yet another qualifier " Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
What does "doeth the will/work of my Father" mean?
John 6:29
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Eternal Security...

#72

Post by Storyteller » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:31 pm

The only condition of salvation is belief in Christ. We cannot, and will not, lose salvation once saved.

Sure, we may have a very long way to go to live anything like Christ and wil make many mistakes, and even sin but that in itself doesn't mean we are not Christian or that we are not saved.

There may be qualifiers on how to live a good, Christian life (and I stress may) but not on salvation.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Eternal Security...

#73

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:37 pm

Storyteller wrote:The only condition of salvation is belief in Christ. We cannot, and will not, lose salvation once saved.

Sure, we may have a very long way to go to live anything like Christ and wil make many mistakes, and even sin but that in itself doesn't mean we are not Christian or that we are not saved.

There may be qualifiers on how to live a good, Christian life (and I stress may) but not on salvation.
Bingo! You are correct my British friend. :D
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Eternal Security...

#74

Post by Storyteller » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:39 pm

Why, thank you, kind Sir :)
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Eternal Security...

#75

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:09 pm

John 6:35-40

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Period.

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