Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
jpbg33
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Re: Eternal Security...

#46

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:20 am

I do not Have a problem with saying that people will sin after there saved. But to say it is ok to sin that is the problem. You not go to heaven if you are living in sin. the bible says Christians do not sin. We are humans not gods so we may make a mistake but we will not continue in them. If we continue in sin we will backslide and have to get saved again. the bible says this "Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ". So if you are not trying to live right then you will be cut off.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#47

Post by RickD » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:26 am

jpbg wrote:
...So if you are not trying to live right then you will be cut off...
Again,

By saying this, you are promoting a works based salvation. I know you aren't meaning to, but you are.

You are saying if a believer is not trying to live right (however you define that), then that believer will lose salvation.

You are saying that in order to keep salvation, one must try to live right. Our effort has no part in keeping ourselves saved.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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jpbg33
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Re: Eternal Security...

#48

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:03 am

Of course it is not any thing we do to stay saved, and I didn't say that God would cut anyone off the bible said that. And to say you can not be cut off is against the bible.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#49

Post by RickD » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:19 am

jpbg33 wrote:Of course it is not any thing we do to stay saved, and I didn't say that God would cut anyone off the bible said that. And to say you can not be cut off is against the bible.
No, it's not against the bible, it is against your misinterpretation of the verse.

Romans 11 is a chapter that Paul is talking about and contrasting Jews and Gentiles as groups. Paul is not talking about individual salvation. So, you are misinterpreting scripture.

Whenever you put a qualifier on salvation, such as "trying to live right", then you are adding something to salvation besides grace through faith.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Eternal Security...

#50

Post by Storyteller » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:39 am

jpbg33 wrote:I do not Have a problem with saying that people will sin after there saved. But to say it is ok to sin that is the problem. You not go to heaven if you are living in sin. the bible says Christians do not sin. We are humans not gods so we may make a mistake but we will not continue in them. If we continue in sin we will backslide and have to get saved again. the bible says this "Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ". So if you are not trying to live right then you will be cut off.
No one is saying its okay to sin.
If we backslide we are not forgiven again, because we are already forgiven. When we accept Christ, He gives us the gift of forgiveness, totally, completely, for eternity. He does not give us that gift with conditions, He does not say we have forgiveness until we sin again, because chances are we will. This is a different thing to deliberately do wrong under the guise of being a Christian.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Eternal Security...

#51

Post by RickD » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:06 pm

Storyteller wrote:
jpbg33 wrote:I do not Have a problem with saying that people will sin after there saved. But to say it is ok to sin that is the problem. You not go to heaven if you are living in sin. the bible says Christians do not sin. We are humans not gods so we may make a mistake but we will not continue in them. If we continue in sin we will backslide and have to get saved again. the bible says this "Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ". So if you are not trying to live right then you will be cut off.
No one is saying its okay to sin.
If we backslide we are not forgiven again, because we are already forgiven. When we accept Christ, He gives us the gift of forgiveness, totally, completely, for eternity. He does not give us that gift with conditions, He does not say we have forgiveness until we sin again, because chances are we will. This is a different thing to deliberately do wrong under the guise of being a Christian.
:amen: :clap:

Very well said Annette!
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Eternal Security...

#52

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:36 pm

I am not putting a qualifier on someone's salvation by saying if you are saved you will live right. That is just stating the obvious. If you are saved the evidence that we will see is you living right. Not a qualifier but a consequences of salvation.

One other thing Paul was not talking to the church and letting them know that just as the Jews were cut off as a whole that they could be cut off as a whole as well because of unbelief. He was using the fact that the Jews being cut off for unbelief means that we can be cut off for unbelief. Not Christian as a whole. Our salvation is in our hearts individually so if I choose to not believe then I am cut off not every Christian. If what Christians believe as a whole could get me cut off then the bible would not say that no one could pluck me out of his hand. It is not if others believe but if I believe.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#53

Post by Storyteller » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:48 pm

It isn't obvious..

and no, being saved doesnt mean we then somehow, magically live right.

Eventually we live right, along with God but not in our physical lifetime.

Yes, it is personal belief and if you dont believe you cannot, and will not, be forced to believe because of free will.

No one can come between you and Christ if you believe and trust in Him
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Eternal Security...

#54

Post by RickD » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:02 pm

jpbg wrote:
I am not putting a qualifier on someone's salvation by saying if you are saved you will live right. That is just stating the obvious. If you are saved the evidence that we will see is you living right. Not a qualifier but a consequences of salvation.
Yes, you are putting a qualifier on salvation because believers don't automatically " live right" just because we are saved. We fall away, backslide, have our times of doubt, go through troubles we cannot handle, etc.

But if we continue to abide in(trust) Christ, we will grow as believers.

And second, why do you think God made you the judge of other believers, and if they're "living right"?

It's actually a pretty simple concept. We trust God for our salvation, because if we trusted in ourselves, we'd all fail. And nobody would be saved.

I can't tell you how many trials, some self inflicted, and some not, that I have gone through in my life. The only constant in all of it is God. Trust Him. He will never fail. He says if you believe in Christ, you have(present tense, no waiting) eternal life. God doesn't promise us a fleeting, temporary life, based on how good we live. He promised eternal life, now, because of what Christ did.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Eternal Security...

#55

Post by Storyteller » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:24 pm

Compared to God none of us can "live right"
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Eternal Security...

#56

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:36 pm

does the bible say we will know them by there fruits? If it dose then we will know them by there fruits.

I never said we will not make a mistake I said if we are saved then we will try not to and if we are not trying not to then we are not saved

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Re: Eternal Security...

#57

Post by Byblos » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:47 pm

jpbg33 wrote:does the bible say we will know them by there fruits? If it dose then we will know them by there fruits.

I never said we will not make a mistake I said if we are saved then we will try not to and if we are not trying not to then we are not saved
If we are not trying not to, does it not mean we are not not saved? :mrgreen:


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Re: Eternal Security...

#58

Post by Rob » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:49 pm

jpbg33 wrote:does the bible say we will know them by there fruits? If it dose then we will know them by there fruits.

I never said we will not make a mistake I said if we are saved then we will try not to and if we are not trying not to then we are not saved
So if you have a temptation, try not to give in, but then eventually give in and do the thing, does this mean that you're not saved?
Where as if you have a temptation, try not to give in, then succeed and don't give in, you are saved?

EDIT: Jynx, Byblos!

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Re: Eternal Security...

#59

Post by Storyteller » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:52 pm

That isnt what you said at all, you said if we were saved we wouldnt sin. If we deliberately sin in the name of God then we are not Christian, we are claiming to be, and Christ knows the difference.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Eternal Security...

#60

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:07 pm

actually that is what the bible says "1Jn_3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.".
If I said something else this is what I meant " if we are saved then we will try not to sin and if we are not trying not to then we are not really saved ".

to the temptation thing No but if we do not repent but choose to live in our sin then that is unbelief and we will be cut off just like the Jews were cot off for unbelief.

If we are not trying to do right that is the evidence that we are not saved. Just as if you are not trying to please your wife then you must not love her. If you are not trying to please God you do not love him.

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