Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
jpbg33
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Re: Eternal Security...

#346

Post by jpbg33 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:20 am

I am not saying that you do anything to be or not to be saved but that if you are saved then you will be doing good works.

If the wages of sin is death then if you sin after you are saved your eternal life dies. the wages of sin is not a physical death we know that because Adam and Eve didn't physically die when they eat of the tree they spiritually died they had eternal life and the wages of there sin was death just like the wages of our is death. So just as there eternal life died when they eat of the tree our eternal live will die when we sin.

The bible dose not say the wages of sin is death only if you are not saved, but it says the wages of sin is death.

we sin before we are saved because we have no faith in God and we sin after we are saved because we let our faith in God die.


if you faith is not 100% in God then you are not saved. The bible says you can not serve God and mammon.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

we do not sin to loose our faith but we sin because our faith has died. I'm not saying that we loose our faith because we sin but that if we sin that is the evidence that our faith is dead.


What it comes down to is that sin is the outward manifestation of dead faith.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#347

Post by Rob » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:37 am

jpbg33 wrote: If the wages of sin is death then if you sin after you are saved your eternal life dies.
Heresy.
jpbg33 wrote: So just as there eternal life died when they eat of the tree our eternal live will die when we sin.
Heresy.
jpbg33 wrote: we sin before we are saved because we have no faith in God and we sin after we are saved because we let our faith in God die.
Can you sin unintentionally? Or is it always a conscious "I'm going to go ahead and sin now'"
jpbg33 wrote: if you faith is not 100% in God then you are not saved. The bible says you can not serve God and mammon.
If you do not spend 100% of all your time loving the Lord God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind, then that is an imperfection and you are also not saved and will be going straight to hell when you die.
jpbg33 wrote: we do not sin to loose our faith but we sin because our faith has died. I'm not saying that we loose our faith because we sin but that if we sin that is the evidence that our faith is dead.
And are therefore unsaved? Heresy.

You sir, are a heretic. I beg you, repent from this Pelagian nonsense and accept the saving grace of Christ. If what you are saying is true, then you and every single other person on the planet are going to hell.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#348

Post by crochet1949 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:43 am

The wages of sin Is death -- but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Jesus Christ took care of our sinfulness when He died on the cross and then He rose again from the dead to show that He was indeed the Son of God. So His taking our sins on Himself and our accepting His gift of salvation takes care of the death penalty. We are redeemed through / by His shed blood. Thus, the 'gift' of salvation is There, but it has to be Accepted in order for it to do any good.
Otherwise every time we sinned we'd be afraid of Loosing our salvation -- it becomes a 'work' to continue Being saved. Once the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer, He Never leaves us. Part of His job is to provide the securing of our soul until we are safely with Christ.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#349

Post by jpbg33 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:19 am

Y'all are wrong because the Bible says James_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

our faith can die unlike what y'all are saying.


It is not heresy to speak the truth

What I am saying is

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

James_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;






It is heresy to say that because the bible says that you get eternal life when you are saved so you can not loose it one's you get it because if you are able to loose it then it isn't really eternal life.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#350

Post by Rob » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:48 am

You're just simply wrong. Totally.

What you are saying is this:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him and then never sins should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You equate having faith with not sinning, which is total bunk. Plain and simple.
Yes, faith without works is dead. Nobody is disputing that. What we are disputing is that good works = never sinning. It doesn't. You can cherry pick single verses out of context all day long, it doesn't help your frankly terrible and enslaving position.

You add to the words of Jesus and also add your own work of not sinning to your salvation. As if Jesus alone can't save you. This is heresy.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#351

Post by RickD » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:57 am

And just to add, dead faith is still faith. It's not "non-faith". It's dead from the perspective that there's no good works.

It's not dead from the perspective that it's a loss of salvation. Nowhere does scripture say dead faith is loss of salvation, or loss of eternal life.
It is heresy to say that because the bible says that you get eternal life when you are saved so you can not loose it one's you get it because if you are able to loose it then it isn't really eternal life.
Common sense says that if you have eternal life, you will live eternally. From that moment on. Period. Otherwise you never had eternal life.


What your version of John 3:16 says:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish,shall be saved as long as he doesn't sin but have eternal life and have temporary life.

Or what Rob said above^
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...

#352

Post by crochet1949 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:07 pm

Maybe the concept of eternally secure gets a bad wrap is because the people who haven't really been 'saved' in the 1st place are observed continuing to do those things that they did Before and don't seem to have any problem with 'sinning'. They are acting like their salvation has merely been a 'get out of hell free' card and so they are now free to do 'whatever' with no eternal negative consequences. THAT is Not salvation. That is potentially someone who has been talked into 'going to church' by some truly concerned friends -- he Finally agrees to go and makes a 'profession of faith' just to get the people to leave them alone. Everyone is very happy for him -- but he never goes back -- and ditches the well-meaning friends. So his New friends tease him about having gotten 'religion'.
Or the person who honestly Does go to church to get some answers -- he's told to Do Church and he'll be fine. So he Does -- someone leads him in a prayer and tells him he's now 'saved'. There's been No change -- but because he 'walked the aisle' and 'prayed a prayer' he Must be saved. But there's been no Inner change and , thus, no Outer change -- so he's 'seen' as one who's using salvation as an escape from hell but his life isn't showing anything Positive in Godliness.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#353

Post by jpbg33 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:33 pm

Commonsense also says if you die the your life is over forever. So if you sin you must spiritually die for ever with no chances of ever getting saved. So if you do not get saved when you are a little kid before the age of accountability then you can never be saved. Because salvation according to Commonsense is only for people who have not sinned.

what I am say is not cherry picking

unlike what y'all are doing I taking the whole bible into consideration not just one or two verses there is more to the bible then for God so love the word.

I only put one or two verses at a time because there is so much in the bible that say you can backslide that it would be to long to read.


apparently y'all have never lost anything before but I have and when I lost it that didn't mean I never had it to began with. It just meant I lost it so I don't have it any more.

You will not go to heaven on dead faith that is crazy.

the bible says that God is the God of the living not the dead

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


So what is that saying faith is the substance of things hoped for. So it is something we can not see.

the evidence of things no seen. things no seen is your hope and your evidence of your hope is the fact that you are not sinning.

I have no problem with what crochet1949 said but I do believe you can lose it but maybe you can't that is fine but it you say you are saved and are going around living a sinful life you are not saved. Because Christian do not live sinful lives.
Last edited by jpbg33 on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#354

Post by RickD » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:47 pm

jpbg wrote:
the evidence of things no seen. things no seen is your hope and your evidence of your hope is the fact that you are not sinning.
Yes, and the evidence that you are saved, is that you are not sinning. You can say it a million times, and by making sinning or the lack thereof, a condition for salvation, is making it performance based, and adding to "saved by grace, through faith alone". And it's still heresy.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...

#355

Post by Storyteller » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:50 pm

The wages of sin is death.
True. Our physical, bodily death.

Salvation is offered and given to all that believe and it is eternal. Our spirit doesn't die.

Salvation does NOT depend on our works, and just because we are saved doesn't mean sin is eradicated. It's forgiven.

If we sin it does not mean we are not saved.

Evidence of hope is not sinning? Sorry I totally disagree.

Not sinning is something only God and Christ are capable of, at least in this lifetime.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Eternal Security...

#356

Post by jpbg33 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:02 pm

No you are twisting my words I am not saying that it is condition for salvation but that it is the evidence of salvation.

the bible says that if you are saved then you can live a sinless life. sinners can't live a sinless life but Christians can.

Just because we can dose not mean we will but we can.

bible says you are forgiven of your past sins not your future sins.

and it says that your sins are cast as far as the east is from the west.

God dose not leave them in your heart.

how many people here died physically when they sinned. If you are reading this then you are not dead. just a hint


when you sin you die spiritually not physically

Adam and Eve was told by God that they would die the day they eat of the tree and we are here because they did not die physically but they died spiritually just like we die spiritually not physically when we sin.


so you don't think I am cherry picking here is a big passage of scripture

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#357

Post by LittleHamster » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:39 pm

I recall some confusion with the correct definition of "works" i.e., works = doing stuff or is it works = doctrine ?

Check your context folks !

An example: Those who were following Jesus asked Him “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent” (John 6:28-29).


Otherwise you could end up with this.....

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Re: Eternal Security...

#358

Post by melanie » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:10 pm

jpbg33 wrote:Commonsense also says if you die the your life is over forever. So if you sin you must spiritually die for ever with no chances of ever getting saved. So if you do not get saved when you are a little kid before the age of accountability then you can never be saved. Because salvation according to Commonsense is only for people who have not sinned.

what I am say is not cherry picking

unlike what y'all are doing I taking the whole bible into consideration not just one or two verses there is more to the bible then for God so love the word.

I only put one or two verses at a time because there is so much in the bible that say you can backslide that it would be to long to read.


apparently y'all have never lost anything before but I have and when I lost it that didn't mean I never had it to began with. It just meant I lost it so I don't have it any more.

You will not go to heaven on dead faith that is crazy.

the bible says that God is the God of the living not the dead

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


So what is that saying faith is the substance of things hoped for. So it is something we can not see.

the evidence of things no seen. things no seen is your hope and your evidence of your hope is the fact that you are not sinning.

I have no problem with what crochet1949 said but I do believe you can lose it but maybe you can't that is fine but it you say you are saved and are going around living a sinful life you are not saved. Because Christian do not live sinful lives.
apparently y'all have never lost anything before but I have and when I lost it that didn't mean I never had it to began with. It just meant I lost it so I don't have it any more.
I think I understand where you are coming from but perhaps you are looking at it the wrong way.
When I was first on this forum I challenged OSAS because of my personal experience. I grew up with a strong faith, then for reasons that I am not going to go into now I backslid big time. I never stopped believing in Jesus but my actions painted a different picture. I was lost and acting out in ways that looking back I can not even fathom how I got to that place. Shame does not even come close to describing my reaction when God snapped me back to my senses.
So my thinking was OSAS is a lie because I've lived through a time in my life when I was acting in ways that was leading me in one direction and it wasn't my eternal home. I thought... I knew I was saved previously, that my faith was genuine and my love for God sincere but yet I tuned out the voice of God and let myself get dragged down by what I am certain was a calculated act of satan to seperate me from God. Bottom line, I thought there was no way OSAS could be true because I saw myself as an example of how I placed my salvation in jeopardy and had separated myself from God.

Then I had an epiphany, helped actually by something Rick said, thanks Rick, I never did thank you y>:D<
I had separated myself from God, but He had never left my side. When the time was right, He steered me back. I was never lost to God, for reasons that sometimes completely escapes me, I am a child of God, He loves me, He loved me in my mammoth failures and He will never forsake me.
My thinking turned around, my own experience showed me that OSAS transends our understanding. God knows who are His. Even though I walked so far away, the fact that God brought me back to Him, was actually testament to OSAS. Not by human reasoning but by Gods Omniscience.
The fact that you are back in God's presence shows you that He did not and has not forsaken you. Not because of your good works or inspite of your bad times but because God knows His children. He knew them before the foundation of the world. Evertime one of His flock strays, He gathers us back.
How awesome is that! My faith is so much stronger now. To feel the forgiveness and love of our Father when we know how absolutely underserving we are has been a life altering realisation for me. I honestly believe God brought me to my knees so I could sail to new heights.

As a person who has been let down by those in my life who were meant to protect and love me, I never really felt 100% secure in Gods love. It was a learned response from a child, those that love you let you down. I had faith in God but not complete trust. That has changed. My greatest failures have been my biggest lessons.
God will never let me down. His love will never falter. I am 100% secure in His love and presence.
I love Him and I trust Him. I try to do my very best and sometimes I suck at it, but He loves me anyway.
When I fail/sin we work together to learn the lessons. I can move forward because I am not stuck looking back. Not to my past, not to yesterday when I screwed up, I am forgiven, and moving forward.

Don't limit God's love, His grace, His forgiveness.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#359

Post by Storyteller » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:44 am

Mel...

That is one of the most beautiful things I have read on here.

Thank you.

A x

PS It`s also very, very true :)
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Eternal Security...

#360

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:05 am

So you can not say I am cherry picking I put the whole chapters in so you can see the context of all the verses I am using


If you think about what osas says is true then you would see that there is no real assurance of any kind. In osas you might be saved but you might not you may just think you are saved. Because how do you really know you are saved. I guess osao say they know there saved because they fill saved in there heart, but the bible says "Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? ". So in osao you could go your whole life thinking you are saved and not really be.
But what I believe is different and has true assurance. I believe that is you are saved you can live above the world and that is how you know that you are saved. Because only Christians can live above the world sinners may try but will always fall short. And the bible confirms my belief " 1Jn_2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.". So according to this verse if you are not keeping his commandments you do not know you know him. so osas has no assurance at all." Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."

So here it says that it isn't the fact that the bible says you get everlasting live that you get to go to heaven but that you get everlasting life if you soweth to the Spirit.
And the bible say if you walk after the Spirit you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh(will not sin). and the bible say if you fulfill the lust of the flesh then you bring forth sin and sin when it is Finished bring forth death.

And in Hebrews you see that you must stay saved until the end to get to go to heaven
and like those that sinned in the wilderness didn't get to enter in to God rest nether will us who sin today.

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.



this say if you endureth temptation you reseve the crown of life that God promest those that love him not just because the bible say everlasting life and that sense it say everlasting life you can't lose it because if you could lose it then it wasn't ever lasting.

So according to this passage you only get everlasting life if you do not sin

it also says that you must be a dower of the word not just a hearer you must keep his commandments.

it also says if you are not living right then you are just deceiving your self and your religion in not real and that true religion is living right and not sin


Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Jas 1:9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
Jas 1:10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
Jas 1:11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Jas 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.



this chapter is talking about someone that is teaching that it is ok to sin after you are saved and that it is not true at all and that they will go to hell for teaching that and living that way. So sense it is a false teaching and they will go to hell teaching and living that way then those who live that way will go to hell as well because that teaching is untrue. You can not live according to false teaching and go to heaven.


2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

this says that if you get saved and keep sinning that you are unwise and foolish and that God will turn you over to a reprobate mind and in the end you will go to hell.
because you are not worthy of everlasting life but death

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Rom 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
Rom 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
Rom 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
Rom 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
Rom 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them
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this passage says when you get save to take off the old man that sins and put on the new man that dose not sin

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

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