Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
jpbg33
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Re: Eternal Security...

#31

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:34 pm

I don't believe my work are what saves me but I do believe if I am saved I will be doing my works and if I catch my self not doing them then I must have lost my faith. To believe once saved always saved is right you have to assume to much. I am human an my assumptions are not always right so when it come to my eternal life I want to be able to take all scripture and agree with them all with out assume that they mean something different then what they say. I don't have a problem with people saying they believe in once saved always saved. If they say that if your are saved then you will not sin. but to say you believe once saved always saved so it doesn't mater if I sin is not right. the bible says Christians do not sin. So according to the bible ether once you get saved you will not sin any more or if you get saved and you find your self sinning you are not saved any more. The bible would not say Christians do not sin if they do. Not only that it would not say all liars are going to hell if saved ones go to heaven. The whole bible must agree with your doctrine or your doctrine is wrong.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#32

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:49 pm

Reading back over this I can see that this might be a case of eisegesis, jpbg says that the KJV translation uses the word "Should" rather than "Shall" because the Bible would contradict itself otherwise, but in reality this is really just a case of "Shall" contradicting their interpretation of other passages, so instead of staying true to the Greek words and meanings they have changed the word from "shall" to "should" so it fits with their interpretation.

Here is a link if anyone doesn't understand what exegesis and eisegesis are http://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html

From the article.
Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#33

Post by melanie » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:24 pm

jpbg33 wrote:I don't believe my work are what saves me but I do believe if I am saved I will be doing my works and if I catch my self not doing them then I must have lost my faith. To believe once saved always saved is right you have to assume to much. I am human an my assumptions are not always right so when it come to my eternal life I want to be able to take all scripture and agree with them all with out assume that they mean something different then what they say. I don't have a problem with people saying they believe in once saved always saved. If they say that if your are saved then you will not sin. but to say you believe once saved always saved so it doesn't mater if I sin is not right. the bible says Christians do not sin. So according to the bible ether once you get saved you will not sin any more or if you get saved and you find your self sinning you are not saved any more. The bible would not say Christians do not sin if they do. Not only that it would not say all liars are going to hell if saved ones go to heaven. The whole bible must agree with your doctrine or your doctrine is wrong.
I think that majority of christians would not and definitely should not think its okay to sin. Salvation through Jesus is not a get out of jail free card but there is a difference between thinking it's okay to sin and understanding that of course it's not okay but we fall short at times regardless, because we are flawed and human. If we could have ever have achieved what you suggest to be sinless then Jesus would never have had to hang on that cross in the first place.
The most important commandments are love God and love others as ourselves. Do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Something we can strive for but never perfect. We have all lost our patience, been too critical, spoken a harsh word. Been wrong. Treated others as we would not particularly like to be treated ourselves. Some get it right more than others and at differing times in our lives. When life gets tough and we get stressed its a lot harder to maintain.
I don't think its a reflection of our faith but a reflection of our flawed human nature.
When Jesus said let him who is without sin cast the first stone, he wasn't expecting anyone to start hurling stones because it is impossible to be completely sinless. Jesus knew this, that is why on the cross He said 'it is finished', the Greek word is tetelestai meaning 'paid in full'. The blood of The Lamb washes us clean.
Now far be it for anyone to make a mockery of the sacrifice Of Jesus and confess Jesus with the mouth but never the heart and to act in every possible way outside of the will of God but even when we confess Jesus with our hearts this never leads us to perfection but rather to our perfect Saviour.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#34

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:58 pm

melanie wrote:
jpbg33 wrote:I don't believe my work are what saves me but I do believe if I am saved I will be doing my works and if I catch my self not doing them then I must have lost my faith. To believe once saved always saved is right you have to assume to much. I am human an my assumptions are not always right so when it come to my eternal life I want to be able to take all scripture and agree with them all with out assume that they mean something different then what they say. I don't have a problem with people saying they believe in once saved always saved. If they say that if your are saved then you will not sin. but to say you believe once saved always saved so it doesn't mater if I sin is not right. the bible says Christians do not sin. So according to the bible ether once you get saved you will not sin any more or if you get saved and you find your self sinning you are not saved any more. The bible would not say Christians do not sin if they do. Not only that it would not say all liars are going to hell if saved ones go to heaven. The whole bible must agree with your doctrine or your doctrine is wrong.
I think that majority of christians would not and definitely should not think its okay to sin. Salvation through Jesus is not a get out of jail free card but there is a difference between thinking it's okay to sin and understanding that of course it's not okay but we fall short at times regardless, because we are flawed and human. If we could have ever have achieved what you suggest to be sinless then Jesus would never have had to hang on that cross in the first place.
The most important commandments are love God and love others as ourselves. Do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Something we can strive for but never perfect. We have all lost our patience, been too critical, spoken a harsh word. Been wrong. Treated others as we would not particularly like to be treated ourselves. Some get it right more than others and at differing times in our lives. When life gets tough and we get stressed its a lot harder to maintain.
I don't think its a reflection of our faith but a reflection of our flawed human nature.
When Jesus said let him who is without sin cast the first stone, he wasn't expecting anyone to start hurling stones because it is impossible to be completely sinless. Jesus knew this, that is why on the cross He said 'it is finished', the Greek word is tetelestai meaning 'paid in full'. The blood of The Lamb washes us clean.
Now far be it for anyone to make a mockery of the sacrifice Of Jesus and confess Jesus with the mouth but never the heart and to act in every possible way outside of the will of God but even when we confess Jesus with our hearts this never leads us to perfection but rather to our perfect Saviour.
:toppoints:
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#35

Post by Stu » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:55 pm

RickD wrote:
Stu wrote:
5. There are those who used to profess Christ but no longer. They have not lost their salvation. They might be choosing to deny Christ, like Peter did, due to social pressure and distress. Those people still have salvation. However there is also another possibility. They might be choosing to betray Christ, like Judas Iscariot, because they never put their faith in Christ. On the outside it looked like they were Christians but they never were and never had salvation.
And what of people who were once Christians and saved but who now deny Christ - say someone who converted to Islam from Christianity.

I think it's dangerous to say that a Christian can do whatever they want whenever they want and they will still be saved.
Stu,

Are you saying that a Christian can lose eternal life if he still commits certain sins? So, in your mind, a believer keeping salvation is directly tied to the person's own ability to stop sinning?
No, even though we sin we have salvation through Jesus' sacrifice.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#36

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:20 am

That is what I believe. I believe that sometimes we may get stressed out and sometimes fall short but if we are Christians we don't live in sin we make thing right and stop sinning. I have personally seen people that clamed to be Christians but later on in life start living a horrible life and I have seen this more then once. Not only that but people most of the time say they are saved but just keep live a sinful life. That is why I believe you can back slide. The only other option is they were not saved to begin with. People do not like to here it but there is more with sinning then our attitudes. The way we talk, the way we treat others, the way we dress, and the way we conduct our every day lives are all part of a Christians life and show our love for God. If I can't tell you are a Christian in any of these ways then you are not a Christian. Making a mistake in one of these areas every once and a while when you get overwhelmed is different but to just do what ever we want in one of these areas is wrong and if you do you are not a Christian or you are no longer a Christian. depending on if once saved always saved is right or not. If it is then you never were a Christian and if it isn't then you back slid. The bible says " Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.". So if we are saved we well not be doing these things. We may mess up but we will not just keep doing them. We know this because the bible says this " 1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. ". So if you are a real Christian according to the bible you will keep your self from evil we are not perfect but we will be trying to do right in all of our lives. To say we are humans and can't do right is wrong if we are Christians because the bible says " Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.". So a Christian is saved to the point that he can live with out sin. We still may make a mistake but we will not keep sinning. Because we are saved unto good works. This is another thing that makes me believe you can back slide the bible says "Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ". This passage says that the person was sanctified by the blood of Jesus and that he will no longer be forgiven for his sin but go to hell when he dies. Sinners do not have the knowledge of the truth so that person would have had to have been saved at one time and is now on his way to hell. doesn't sound like he is saved from anything to me.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#37

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:41 am

One other thing about Greek it is a dead language. No one can possible know every meaning of a word so if a word causes contradictory in other scriptures then there must have been another meaning in that word that we don't know. that is why it should be "should" not "shall".

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Re: Eternal Security...

#38

Post by RickD » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:59 am

jpbg wrote:
...I believe that sometimes we may get stressed out and sometimes fall short but if we are Christians we don't live in sin we make thing right and stop sinning...
So, in order for a believer to keep being saved, he must stop sinning?
I have personally seen people that clamed to be Christians but later on in life start living a horrible life and I have seen this more then once. Not only that but people most of the time say they are saved but just keep live a sinful life. That is why I believe you can back slide.
You're equating backsliding with losing salvation?
The only other option is they were not saved to begin with.
No, there's another option. A believer backslides, but doesn't lose salvation.
People do not like to here it but there is more with sinning then our attitudes. The way we talk, the way we treat others, the way we dress, and the way we conduct our every day lives are all part of a Christians life and show our love for God. If I can't tell you are a Christian in any of these ways then you are not a Christian.
So, you're the judge of who is saved and who isn't?
Making a mistake in one of these areas every once and a while when you get overwhelmed is different but to just do what ever we want in one of these areas is wrong and if you do you are not a Christian or you are no longer a Christian.
Since you made yourself the judge of who is saved and who isn't, please tell us specifically what "every once in a while" is. That way, everyone knows where the line is.
depending on if once saved always saved is right or not. If it is then you never were a Christian and if it isn't then you back slid.
Please explain how someone receives eternal life/salvation. So I can understand your basis for this.
The bible says " Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.". So if we are saved we well not be doing these things. We may mess up but we will not just keep doing them.
Where do you draw the line between "mess up", and "keep doing them"?
So if you are a real Christian according to the bible you will keep your self from evil we are not perfect but we will be trying to do right in all of our lives.
Ok, so in order to be a "real Christian", one has to keep himself from sinning. You're saying, keep from sinning in order to be a real Christian. So salvation is based on how well we keep from sinning. And you cannot see that this means one must work to keep salvation?
To say we are humans and can't do right is wrong if we are Christians because the bible says " Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.". So a Christian is saved to the point that he can live with out sin. We still may make a mistake but we will not keep sinning.
And you don't see the contradiction here? Especially in light of 1John 1:18
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

You say "So a Christian is saved to the point that he can live with out sin. We still may make a mistake but we will not keep sinning".
And the bible says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

And since both cannot be true, do we believe you, or the bible?

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ". This passage says that the person was sanctified by the blood of Jesus and that he will no longer be forgiven for his sin but go to hell when he dies.
Where does this passage say anything about a believer going to hell?

I hope you can see the inconsistency in what you're saying.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...

#39

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:47 am

To believe once saved always saved is pretty strict. If you believe the bible is true. Because the bible says that Christians sinneth not It doesn't says am not and it doesn't say it is ok to sin after we are saved. So if once saved always saved is true according to the bible you will not sin after you are saved. that is the only way you can look at it ether the bible is true or it is a lie. I am being easy on people by saying that you can backslid after you are saved. I am giving people the benefit of the doubt that they were saved before they started sinning. God knows if Christians sin after they are saved and if he says they do not then who am I to say that they do. Knowing that people are not saved is not judging. The bible says we will know if someone is a Christian by there fruits. The bible says " Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. ". This is where I get going to hell "fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries". God adversaries are going to hell.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#40

Post by B. W. » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:15 am

jpbg33 wrote:To believe once saved always saved is pretty strict. If you believe the bible is true. Because the bible says that Christians sinneth not It doesn't says am not and it doesn't say it is ok to sin after we are saved. So if once saved always saved is true according to the bible you will not sin after you are saved. that is the only way you can look at it ether the bible is true or it is a lie. I am being easy on people by saying that you can backslid after you are saved. I am giving people the benefit of the doubt that they were saved before they started sinning. God knows if Christians sin after they are saved and if he says they do not then who am I to say that they do. Knowing that people are not saved is not judging. The bible says we will know if someone is a Christian by there fruits. The bible says " Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. ". This is where I get going to hell "fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries". God adversaries are going to hell.
Do you understand and know the historical reason why it says in Hebrews 10:25 what it says: "...not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near." NASB95

Due to great persecution going on, folks were leaving the assembly in order to turn their neighbors in as heretics. It is actually making the case opposite of what you are conveying. Point is, those that left and did such things were never part of Jesus and never were actually saved. Now look at Hebrews 10:32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39c which verifies what I stated concerning the text being about those who claim Christianity for the free meal, fellowship, perks, blessings but do not belong to Jesus Christ at all and who like Judas betrayed the body of Christ to the persecutors. In fact, the faith chapter goes into this very theme as well.

Jesus is correct: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out," John 6:37 NKJV

Jesus said it, that settles it, I take his word over yours and teach folks this as well. You can deny what Jesus said on the subject all you want and twist scriptures in Hebrews out of context all you desire and it does not change the meaning of John 6:37

If you can willfully leave Christ, then you were never his to begin with as it is revealed in Hebrews 7:25 and 1 John 2:19...
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Re: Eternal Security...

#41

Post by RickD » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:25 am

RickD wrote:
jpbg wrote:
...I believe that sometimes we may get stressed out and sometimes fall short but if we are Christians we don't live in sin we make thing right and stop sinning...
So, in order for a believer to keep being saved, he must stop sinning?
I have personally seen people that clamed to be Christians but later on in life start living a horrible life and I have seen this more then once. Not only that but people most of the time say they are saved but just keep live a sinful life. That is why I believe you can back slide.
You're equating backsliding with losing salvation?
The only other option is they were not saved to begin with.
No, there's another option. A believer backslides, but doesn't lose salvation.
People do not like to here it but there is more with sinning then our attitudes. The way we talk, the way we treat others, the way we dress, and the way we conduct our every day lives are all part of a Christians life and show our love for God. If I can't tell you are a Christian in any of these ways then you are not a Christian.
So, you're the judge of who is saved and who isn't?
Making a mistake in one of these areas every once and a while when you get overwhelmed is different but to just do what ever we want in one of these areas is wrong and if you do you are not a Christian or you are no longer a Christian.
Since you made yourself the judge of who is saved and who isn't, please tell us specifically what "every once in a while" is. That way, everyone knows where the line is.
depending on if once saved always saved is right or not. If it is then you never were a Christian and if it isn't then you back slid.
Please explain how someone receives eternal life/salvation. So I can understand your basis for this.
The bible says " Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.". So if we are saved we well not be doing these things. We may mess up but we will not just keep doing them.
Where do you draw the line between "mess up", and "keep doing them"?
So if you are a real Christian according to the bible you will keep your self from evil we are not perfect but we will be trying to do right in all of our lives.
Ok, so in order to be a "real Christian", one has to keep himself from sinning. You're saying, keep from sinning in order to be a real Christian. So salvation is based on how well we keep from sinning. And you cannot see that this means one must work to keep salvation?
To say we are humans and can't do right is wrong if we are Christians because the bible says " Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.". So a Christian is saved to the point that he can live with out sin. We still may make a mistake but we will not keep sinning.
And you don't see the contradiction here? Especially in light of 1John 1:18
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

You say "So a Christian is saved to the point that he can live with out sin. We still may make a mistake but we will not keep sinning".
And the bible says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

And since both cannot be true, do we believe you, or the bible?

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ". This passage says that the person was sanctified by the blood of Jesus and that he will no longer be forgiven for his sin but go to hell when he dies.
Where does this passage say anything about a believer going to hell?

I hope you can see the inconsistency in what you're saying.
jpbg33,

Are you going to address any of these issues?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...

#42

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:47 am

Ok I didn't address all of them. When I went to the comments page I forgot some of them. So this time I wrote them all down and will explain each one separately and try not to be to repetitive and to put what I believe without putting all the scriptures in just my believe in them.

" So in order for a believer and to keep being saved you must stop sinning"

No that is not what I am saying what I am saying is if someone really gets saved then they will begin to do right because they are saved we do not work for our salvation but our work is our evidence of our salvation.

"You're equating backsliding with losing salvation"

Really I am giving someone the benefit of the doubt that they were saved. Because I am not there judge and sense the bible says multiple times that Christians do not sin then if someone says they were saved but they are living in sin now. Then I say they have backslid.

the option of them being saved or not and me being the judge

Again the bible says multiple times that Christians do not sin. Not only that but is speaks of certain sins and says everyone doing them are going to hell and it doesn't distinguish between saved people an unsaved people. So ether all of them are going or all of them are not going. I never said I was the judge. I said that the bible says you can tell if someone is a Christian or not by there actions. knowing if someone is saved or not is different then judging a person. the bible says we will know them by there fruits.

what I believe messing up is

"I believe messing up is being human" not "living in sin".

What does every once in a while mean to me

That is me giving people the benefit of the doubt. A more right way to say it is any willful act against God . like when you make a concuss disition to go away from God.

how do I believe people get saved

the bible says who ever calls on the Lord shall be saved and says who so ever believeth on him should be saved
so I believe it is by faith that we are saved not by works. but I believe the bible is true when it says if we are saved
we will live right. I do not believe that doing right does anything for our salvation but it proves our salvation is true

do I believe that God saves us to the point that we can live above sin

Yes the bible says he give us the power to overcome so the ability not to sin is there but that doesn't mean I do not think we will ever mess up.
I also believe real Christians will try and do right because the bible says that who God saves they will keep them selves form evil.

1 john 1:18

I believe 1 John 1:18 is talking about the mistakes we make in life as humans not willful acts against god. Allowing sin to rain in our lives is not what it is saying.
If we are real Christians we will be striving to do right because we love God.

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Storyteller
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Re: Eternal Security...

#43

Post by Storyteller » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:45 am

Yes, as Christians we strive to do right because we love God but we will still sin because we are human not God. All we can do is trust that once we accept Jesus as our Saviour then we are forgiven. Not forgiven with a but or conditions but totally and for eternity.

Only God and Jesus know what is in our hearts.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Rob
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Re: Eternal Security...

#44

Post by Rob » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:47 am

I wish God wouldn't look at my heart. There are terrible things there!

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Re: Eternal Security...

#45

Post by Storyteller » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:52 am

Which He forgives you for. Totally. And forever.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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