Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

Re: Eternal Security...

#256

Post by jpbg33 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:40 am

I do not think I am a tree and I do not think the fire was hell. What I think is Jesus was saying that just like trees that do not produce fruit are cut down an thrown in to the fire the same will happen to us if we do not produce fruit we will be cut down and cast in to hell fire. Jesus was using an analogy about a fruit being cut down and burned show it is the same with so if we bare no fruit we are cut down and durned.

and fallen away means they backslid there not saved any more. Hint they died " the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life".

Jesus said that they didn't dare fruit and according to Jesus if plants don't dare fruit they are burned so falling away means to backslid me and Jesus both say you can backslid. I agree with you all the way " Elias".

John 3:16 says you only have eternal life if you believe. believeth means you are believing in him presently. and who ever is presently so as long as you believe in him you have eternal life. if you stop believing in him you no longer believeth in him so you know longer have eternal life it is only for those that believeth in him.

the bible say the way we know we know him is 1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. so if we are not keeping his commandments than we do not know him.
Last edited by jpbg33 on Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5489
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 336 times
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security...

#257

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:47 am

So why does "burn" mean "go to hell"? What does "fire" mean "hellfire"? Where do you see that in the text?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

Re: Eternal Security...

#258

Post by jpbg33 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:03 pm

Well if we are the tree and the fruit is our works then then if trees are being cut down for bad fruit and we know that the worker of antiquity are going to hell and we know that hell is full of fire then it is logical to assume that trees being cut down and cast into fire is talking about people that are doing evil are being taken away and thrown into hell which is full of fire. and just a few verses down from where it said that the tree were cast into fire Jesus said this to explain it even more Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
so he is still talking about the fruit trees
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
and if you are not entering into heaven when you die then you are entering into hell or the lake of fire.
Matthew 7:23 proves fire means hell or the lake of fire.

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5489
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 336 times
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security...

#259

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:08 pm

Why are you quoting Matt 7? The passage talking about trees being burned is in John 15. If that is your approach to Scripture, then read these three verses in the following order:

Matt 27:5
Luke 10:37
John 13:27

Now, having put that aside, we can deal with Matt 7 later. Right now, you raised John 15 and said that the trees being burned are a reference to backsliders going to hell. So I'll ask you again: where in the text of John 15 do you get the idea that "burn" = "go to hell"?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

Re: Eternal Security...

#260

Post by jpbg33 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:21 pm

I am referring to the trees in Matthew

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I'm saying Jesus said if you are bearing evil fruit you are sent to hell.

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5489
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 336 times
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security...

#261

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:25 pm

Okay, and what are the evil fruits of the people in this passage referring to? (Hint: look at the word "even so" or "likewise" that begins v 17)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

Re: Eternal Security...

#262

Post by jpbg33 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:49 pm

Evil fruit is iniquity and Jesus said that a good tree can't not bring fore iniquity. Which reaffirms what I am saying that Christians don't sin.

Jesus said by there fruit ye shall know them so if someone life bringing forth iniquity then they are not Christians.

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5489
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 336 times
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security...

#263

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:58 pm

And what is "iniquity" in this text? Here, I'll help you out. Here is the text:

Matt 7:15-23 (KJV)
  • Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Again, what is the fruit? You can't just say "iniquity" because Jesus compares good fruit and bad fruit. There is no such thing as good iniquity. Fruit is something a three or vine produces. So, in this passage, who are the trees referring to? I've tracked the pronouns back to a subject for you.

Don't give me a theological interpretation. Tell me what the text says there. Who is bearing this "fruit"? I'm looking for a two word answer (three words, if you include the definite article).
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

Re: Eternal Security...

#264

Post by jpbg33 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:13 pm

iniquity is sin or evil works and that opposite of that is righteousness or good works.

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5489
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 336 times
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security...

#265

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:18 pm

jpg - READ WHAT I AM ASKING YOU:

Who is bearing the "fruit"? Look at the passage. I have highlighted it for you. WHO is Jesus talking about?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

Re: Eternal Security...

#266

Post by jpbg33 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:26 pm

What you are wonting me to say is it is taking about false prophets and it is but a false prophet is someone that is teaching a false doctrine and Jesus said you will know them by there fruit. So it someone is telling me some from the bible and they are not living right then I know they are not Christians because they are sinning.

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5489
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 336 times
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security...

#267

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:36 pm

Right, it is talking about false prophets. And you are right Jesus said that you will know THEM -- the false prophet -- by THEIR -- the false prophet's -- fruit.

Now, what is the fruit of a prophet? Quit reading your theology into the text and just answer the question. Again, two words are all you need here.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

Re: Eternal Security...

#268

Post by jpbg33 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:43 pm

there iniquety

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5489
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 336 times
Contact:

Re: Eternal Security...

#269

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:54 pm

No. What is the fruit of a prophet in general. What do prophets produce? Again, don't read into the question. We can decide of what they produce is good or bad, figs or thorns, righteousness or iniquity, later. Right now I just want to know what it is that they produce. What is their fruit?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 4 times

Re: Eternal Security...

#270

Post by jpbg33 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:17 pm

I do not know what you think it is if you do not think it is there iniquities

Jesus said they were to be cast in fire because of the bad fruit and then explaining it He said there going to hell because of there iniquities

So I guess the bad fruit is there iniquities

Post Reply