Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Jac3510
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Re: Eternal Security...

#241

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:29 pm

It's silly to say, "Jesus for give us of all our sin if we ask him then if everyone has sin in there life at all time no matter what then Jesus must leave some there." That's just patently false. We are not eternal beings. We are temporal beings. So Jesus may forgive me of all my sin, but if I sin tomorrow, then guess what? There's more sin in my life I need to be forgiven for! That doesn't mean that He didn't forgive me for all of them.

But even more, suppose you insist that Jesus forgives us even for future sin. It still doesn't follow that "Jesus must leave some." For, again, if we are temporal beings, then if He is forgiving us for sins we haven't committed yet, then it follows that we will commit those sins. If Jesus took even those away, then by your logic, they wouldn't be there to commit!

So what you are saying just isn't true. 1 John 1:8 is true for the believer. And believers sin. We are sinners. But our sin is not what keeps us out of heaven. The reason is that we have been forgiven of that sin--even the stuff that we do after salvation. John says that to deny that--to deny that we are sinners--is to deny the truth, that the truth is not in us. The reason we go to Hell is because we are dead, not having life. But, of course, all who believe in Jesus have not only life, but everlasting life. So OSAS IS true. To suggest that we can lose our salvation, especially through sin, is to suggest that Jesus did not, in fact, forgive us of our sin. If He did, then that sin would not strip us of our salvation. And if we do not sin post salvation, then there is no sin for Jesus to forgive.

Your logic is just flawed, my friend. You're just contradicting yourself. So stop it and just believe the gospel.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#242

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:49 pm

I do not think God for give us of future sins we haven't committed them yet so there is nothing there to for give. I also do not believe that it is our sin that keeps us out of heaven. I believe that if we are living sinfully after we are saved that is evidence that we do not believe any more and only those that believe are going to heaven. John 3:16 for God so loved the world that who so ever believeth in him should not parish but have ever lasting life. So that promise of ever lasting live is for those who believe. The bible says he cut the Jews off for not believing and he will cut us off for not believing as well.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#243

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:59 pm

Ah huh . . . evidence you haven't believed?

Fine. So which sins prove you haven't really believed? How many? When do you know? Is it calling God a liar and preaching a false gosel? Peter did that after conversion. Is it refusing to worship Him, denying Him before men? The Bible calls believers people who were doing that. Is it breaking any of the Ten Commandments? Which ones, because if murder, then if we take Jesus seriously, getting angry would be proof we don't believe. So now you are either back to being perfect and never sinning after salvation as proof of real faith or sin proving that you haven't really believed at all. And since 1 John 1:8 says that even belivers sin, it looks like that none of us have really believed after all!

And beyond all that, if you are right, then why does the Bible nowhere distinguish between "real" and "false" faith? I mean, if there is evidence that I haven't "really" believed, then it seems my faith is a fake faith. So you would think the Bible would talk about that, wouldn't you? I don't know about you, but I get my theology from Scripture. So tell me, jpg--you seem to think this idea of "fake faith" is pretty important, so where do we find that term in Scripture? Because I don't see it anywhere.

What I do see is you inventing something that isn't there so you can justify not believing what Jesus said.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#244

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:23 pm

The bible says faith with out works is dead and that is what I am saying if you are not living right then that is proof your faith is dead.

Jas_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

and if you have no faith you have on eternal life
like the bible he will cut you off

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Re: Eternal Security...

#245

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:29 pm

James says the faith is dead. It doesn't say that it is fake. Does say, "Whoever has a living faith in Me has everlasting life" or "Whoever believes in Me and acts like it has everlasting life"? No. He does not. So you're just adding to the words of Jesus.

So what is keeping you from just believing what Jesus actually said?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#246

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:48 pm

Adam and Eve were sent out of the garden of Eden because they stopped believing in God. They had eternal life and when they stopped believing in God there spiritual lives died and that is what happens to us when we stop believing our faith dies. then we have to go back to God for him to give so life again.

this verses is talking specifically about people saying we have liberty to sin after we are saved.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the m
ire.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#247

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:03 pm

Where does the Bible say that Adam and Eve had eternal life before they sinned? (Hint: it doesn't.) Where does the Bible say that if we stop believing then our spiritual lives die? Again, it doesn't say that anywhere. Once again, you are apparently reading your theology into the text to justify your insistence that Jesus didn't mean what He actually said.

Do you realize what you are doing? Jesus said that every single person who believes in Him has everlasting life. You are very politely telling Jesus He is wrong, that you'll help Him out, that, in fact, it is NOT everyone who believes, but rather everyone who believes AND (insert your favorite condition). I wouldn't want to be the one telling Jesus He is wrong.

So once again, what is it that is keeping you from believing what Jesus actually said? Are you actually going to answer my question or just keep ignoring me and running to different verses to justify not believing His words?

As far as 2Pet 2, obviously we do not have liberty to sin, and that before or after salvation. What, do you actually think we have liberty to sin BEFORE salvation? If so, that's just another heretical idea on your part. Now if we don't have liberty to sin before salvation, why would we have liberty to sin after salvation? Of course we don't. But I'll give you this: in implying that the gospel gives us liberty to sin after salvation, you are making the exact same argument that Paul's opponents made. That tells me 1) that you are not only wrong but you are wrong enough that Paul condemned your theology as heresy, a false gospel for which one is to be declared anathema, and 2) that at least you are starting to grasp what you are rejecting; for if you didn't start to at least grasp the freedom in Christ, you would not be able to reject that freedom.

So, again, I ask you, what is it that is keeping you from believing the words of Jesus? It seems to me that a fear of freedom is doing that, which translates into a desire to be under the Law. Such a fear and false gospel are condemned throughout Scripture, but it would be nice to at least get your objection out in the open so we can deal honestly with it.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#248

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:18 pm

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Jesus said anyone doing any of these thing are going to the lake of fire, he didn't unless you were already saved.

I do not believe we have liberty to sin before or after we are saved.

that scripture say if you start living sinful after you are saved it is it would have been better for you to have not even known the way of salvation

and if you have never known the way of salvation then you were never saved and are going to hell. So if you start living sinfully after you are saved then your end will be worse then hell.

If Adam and Eve had not eaten of the tree of go and evil they would still be alive to day.

Jesus said eternal life is for people who are presently believing or were believing when they died.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#249

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:50 pm

jpbg33 wrote:I do not believe we have liberty to sin before or after we are saved.
Great, neither do I! So let's get off the liberty to sin stuff.
that scripture say if you start living sinful after you are saved it is it would have been better for you to have not even known the way of salvation

and if you have never known the way of salvation then you were never saved and are going to hell. So if you start living sinfully after you are saved then your end will be worse then hell.
What makes you think that Hell is in view? The text doesn't say that. Again, you are reading into the text. Why not just believe what it says rather than something of your own invention? What it says is true. If you believe the gospel and are saved and then get caught up in a sinful lifestyle, if you are duped by these false teachers, it would be better for you if you had never believed the gospel. That doesn't say you are going to Hell at all. Look what Peter compares such people to . . . dogs and pigs, the worst insults you could give a good Jew. It seems more likely to me that Peter is talking about the divine judgment that will fall in this life on apostates. Regardless, though, the point is that Peter does not consign those people to Hell. He consigns the false teachers of vv 17 to Hell, but there is a clear referent shift in v. 18 (please don't make me print the text up with colored pronouns again . . . you should be able to do some of the work yourself).

So, again, you're reading a theology into the text. And for what reason? So you can deny what it actually says. What's the motivation behind that? Why are you so insistent that good behavior is necessary to get you to heaven?
If Adam and Eve had not eaten of the tree of go and evil they would still be alive to day.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that they had eternal life. Eternal life includes immortality, but immortality is not identical to eternal life. Once again, can you give me a verse that makes that equation? Hint: you can't.
Jesus said eternal life is for people who are presently believing or were believing when they died.
No, He does not say that. It's clear you don't know Greek, so leave arguments about the aorist tense aside (if you knew Greek, you would not make such an absurd claim). Here's something for you in English:
  • Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
So that's Luke 8:11-15. See what I've underlined there. Only the first group does not believe. They are not saved. The second group believes and then loses their faith. Yet Jesus does not say that they are not saved. He only says that they did not produce fruit. So, once again, you are reading your theology into the text.

But what did Jesus actually say? That everyone who believes has everlasting life. Therefore, those people who lost their faith, having once believed had everlasting life. Everlasting life, by definition, cannot be lost, for then it would be temporary life. Therefore, those people in the second group are still saved. They just aren't producing fruit--quite a shameful thing!

Now look at the alternative that you are suggesting. In order to be saved, you must

1. Believe
2. Persevere in that faith
3. Do good works in keeping with that faith
4. Maintain those good works in keeping with that faith
5. Bear fruit from your faith

So you now have a five point plan of salvation. On your theology, Jesus is wrong. On your theology, it is NOT true that EVERYONE who believes has everlasting life. You would have to say that EVERYONE who believes has life so long as they believe, and if they die in that faith, then they have everlasting life (but that's your gospel, not Jesus'). Or you would have to say that everyone who believes AND maintains that faith has everlasting life (but that's your gospel, not Jesus'). Or you would have to say that everyone who true faith--whatever that is--has everlasting life (but that's your gospel, not Jesus'). Or you would have to say that everyone who believes and produces fruit has everlasting life (but that's your gospel, not Jesus').

No matter how you cut it, you are saying Jesus is wrong. So, I ask again, why is it that you refuse to believe what Jesus actually said? What is preventing you from believing His words as He said them? Why do you tell Him He is wrong?

Put bluntly, why don't you believe the gospel? Put more bluntly still, why do you persist in your unbelief? Matt 7:21-23 is a warning for people like you . . .
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#250

Post by jpbg33 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:08 am

what I believe is to be saved you must believe and if you believe the evidence that you believe is your good works. It is not what you do to get saved but if you are saved your love for God will cause you to live right.

I do not have to be a Greek scolder to read English and the KJV is in English and it says Jesus said believes not believed. so people who believe presently have eternal life.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#251

Post by jpbg33 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:10 am

Jesus said if a tree isn't producing good fruit it will be cur down and cast in to the fire

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Re: Eternal Security...

#252

Post by LittleHamster » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:11 am

Sorry, I'm getting a bit frustrated :(
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Re: Eternal Security...

#253

Post by UsagiTsukino » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:08 am

jpbg33 wrote:what I believe is to be saved you must believe and if you believe the evidence that you believe is your good works. It is not what you do to get saved but if you are saved your love for God will cause you to live right.

I do not have to be a Greek scolder to read English and the KJV is in English and it says Jesus said believes not believed. so people who believe presently have eternal life.

actually you are so wrong on that. for one just because a bible is in English doesn't mean it's wrong. In fact there are many changes that would normally not be made in the KJV from the Greek. R u a shame that someone is telling you that English is wrong. Just because you read something doesn't make it true

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Re: Eternal Security...

#254

Post by Elias » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:43 am

What about these verses;

Ezekiel 18:26
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth
iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:12-13

12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people,
The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression:
as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the
day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be
able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to
his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses
shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he
shall die for it.


It should be pointed out that the Apostle Paul made it clear that he did not believe in once saved always saved as he wrote that he could lose his salvation:
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Philippians 3:12-13
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended.

To believe that once we are saved we cannot be lost is to believe that God takes away our greatest freedom--the freedom of choice.
On the other hand, God does want us to have assurance that He will finish the work He has begun in our lives.

Philippians 1:6
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Matthew 24:13.
"He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

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Re: Eternal Security...

#255

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:27 am

jpbg33 wrote:what I believe is to be saved you must believe and if you believe the evidence that you believe is your good works. It is not what you do to get saved but if you are saved your love for God will cause you to live right.

I do not have to be a Greek scolder to read English and the KJV is in English and it says Jesus said believes not believed. so people who believe presently have eternal life.
But Jesus doesn't say that if you believe there will be evidence of good works. He says exactly the opposite in the parable I just quoted. Of those who believe, some fall away (no good works there), some just don't produce any good works (the thorns and thistles crowd), and only some actually produce anything. You're just contradicting Jesus. AND your theology is nothing more than a works-based salvation draped in Christian language. Here's a simple way to prove it: for you, if a person doesn't have good works but has an abundance of sin, where do they go? Hell. So you say that the works come out of faith, but the result is still the same. No works = Hell. That's a works based salvation.

John 1:12 says that everyone who believed (past tense) were saved. John 12:42 say many believed but denied Jesus. Many throughout the gospels believed Jesus and then walked away. Jesus Himself said that some believe and lose their faith or do not produce good works. So the question I have for you AGAIN (in addition to the question of why you refuse to answer) is why won't you believe what JESUS said? He said that every single person who believes--no exceptions has everlasting life. He did NOT say every single person who believes and produces good works. And, in fact, He explicitly says that some believe and do NOT produce good works. Your own quotation just below proves that. Those who do not produce good works are cut off and thrown into the fire! But how could they be cut off if they were not in Christ? And how could they be in Christ if they did not believe?

Again, we see that you call Jesus a liar. You say that not everyone who believes, but rather only those who believe AND produce good works AND remain in that faith/good works until they die. Whoever is in that group, it is less than in the group of ALL believers (per your own Scriptures). As such when Jesus says that ALL believers have eternal life, and you say that NOT all believers have eternal life but only those who satisfy other conditions as well, you say Jesus is wrong, that He lied.

So why are you so insistent on making good works a part of salvation when Jesus Himself does not?
jpbg33 wrote:Jesus said if a tree isn't producing good fruit it will be cur down and cast in to the fire
And why do you think "the fire" = Hell? Jesus does not say Hell. He says "fire." So why are you adding to His words?

In fact, it's clear that Hell is not in view. Are you a literal tree? No. Do you produce literal fruit? Say apples or oranges? No. So why do you think the fire here is the literal fires of Hell? Because your own theology demands it, not because Jesus said it. Fire is simply an agent of destruction and judgment. What Jesus is saying is that if a believer does not produce good fruit, he will be judged harshly for it. That is a warning for Christians. It is not a warning against Hell.

-----------------------------
LittleHamster wrote:Sorry, I'm getting a bit frustrated :(
What is frustrating you specifically jpb's insistence on denying the gospel by not believing Jesus' words and constantly adding to them? That frustrates me, too. I wish he would stop and just believe Jesus. And I would encourage you to do the same. Anytime ANYONE says that what Jesus says is not true and justifies calling Him a liar by adding to His words, then either ignore them or tell them to repent of their sin of rejecting the gospel.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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