Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Re: Eternal Security...

#16

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:06 am

jpbg33 wrote:Lets don't forget kids don't have free well to do what they wont to do. As parent we keep them out of the road or get them out of it if they get in it and punish them if they get in it. God gives us free well to do what we want to do. He doesn't get you out of the road. He punishes you while you are in the road to make you walk back out of the road your self. But if you stay in the road then you get ran over and die. Its all about free well. one more thing. The bible says "Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ". So if Christians were able to do these thing and still go to heaven then Jesus is a liar because all these people would not be going to hell just unsaved ones would. We know Jesus does not lie. A few other verses "1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.".
So, when did you stop sinning?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#17

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:17 pm

That is were people get it all mixed up. We are humans and will make mistakes God knows that. So when we find we messed up we are supposed to repent. If we do we are still Christians but if we refuse to repent then we are living in sin and the bible says Christians don't live in sin. when you start living in sin are no longer a Christian. It is not the fact that we committed the sin that cases us to back slide but it is the fact that we don't love God enough to repent and follow him. The bible says "1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.". Jesus said "Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." So if we are not trying to keep his commandments then we do not love him. Jesus said "Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.". So according to Jesus if your not doing the will of God then your not going. People want to say God is love. That is right but if you want to stay in that love you most live right. The bible says "Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.". So if you are not living right you are not in his love.
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Re: Eternal Security...

#18

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:28 pm

jpbg33 wrote:That is were people get it all mixed up. We are humans and will make mistakes God knows that. So when we find we messed up we are supposed to repent. If we do we are still Christians but if we refuse to repent then we are living in sin and the bible says Christians don't live in sin. when you start living in sin are no longer a Christian.
I'm trying to understand your reasoning, so please bear with me.

So, if we sin but repent, we are still saved? How long do we have between the time we sin, and then repent, before it's too late, and we're no longer saved?

And then, if we pass that point, become unsaved, then decide to repent, do we become saved again?

So basically, a Christian can go through life losing eternal life, then getting eternal life over and over?

Is that what you're saying?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Eternal Security...

#19

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:29 pm

When God convicts you of something you have done and you refuse to repent. Then that means you have turned your back on God and walked way from him. So since we have free will given to us by God then he must let us go. Adam and eve had eternal life and it was taken from them for going against God commandments its the same thing now.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#20

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:38 pm

jpbg33 wrote:When God convicts you of something you have done and you refuse to repent. Then that means you have turned your back on God and walked way from him. So since we have free will given to us by God then he must let us go. Adam and eve had eternal life and it was taken from them for going against God commandments its the same thing now.

So this is works based salvation and not saved by faith?
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#21

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:48 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
jpbg33 wrote:When God convicts you of something you have done and you refuse to repent. Then that means you have turned your back on God and walked way from him. So since we have free will given to us by God then he must let us go. Adam and eve had eternal life and it was taken from them for going against God commandments its the same thing now.

So this is works based salvation and not saved by faith?
Good catch Dan. Of course it is.

"Repent" in this instance means feel sorry and change one's ways.

So yes, it's salvation kept, based on performance. Or repenting the correct way.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Eternal Security...

#22

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:50 pm

You can be saved more then once. being saved over and over again is not likely to happen. Because first the Bible say the Spirit of God must call you and God may not call you over and over but he could if he wanted to. Second I am not saying that on every little mistake you have to start over. God gives people a space of time to repent because Sometimes God has to deal with people for a while and if you still love God you will repent. One more thing it is not that we do not ever sin again. It is that we do not live in sin and not repenting is living in it.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#23

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:05 pm

Y'all are mistaken. I am not saying it is works that saves you. If it were the work then you would be lost the first time you messed up. It is the fact that you are no longer welling to do your works. That is evidence that you have lost your faith in God. The bible says " Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. ".

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Re: Eternal Security...

#24

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:22 pm

jpbg33 wrote:You can be saved more then once. being saved over and over again is not likely to happen. Because first the Bible say the Spirit of God must call you and God may not call you over and over but he could if he wanted to. Second I am not saying that on every little mistake you have to start over. God gives people a space of time to repent because Sometimes God has to deal with people for a while and if you still love God you will repent. One more thing it is not that we do not ever sin again. It is that we do not live in sin and not repenting is living in it.
Jpbg,

See if you can understand what I'm seeing in what you wrote.

You said,
You can be saved more than once...
.

Let's just look at what that means. Once one is saved, one has eternal life. If someone goes from being saved, to not saved, then one never had eternal life. It would be temporary, not eternal.

See if you can understand that in light of John 3:16:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


Once one believes in/trusts Christ for salvation, one has(at that moment) eternal life. If one can lose eternal life, it was never eternal, and John 3:16 is a lie.

Your thoughts?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Eternal Security...

#25

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:29 pm

Not necessarily I could give you something than take it back. That doesn't mean you didn't have it before. You did I just took it back and now you do not have it any more.
One other thing the bible really says "Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. " (should not) not (shall not). kjv. Different versions of the bible change the wording of scripture which changes the meaning of what is really being said that is the reason I only use the kjv.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#26

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:08 pm

jpbg33 wrote:Not necessarily I could give you something than take it back. That doesn't mean you didn't have it before. You did I just took it back and now you do not have it any more.
One other thing the bible really says "Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. " (should not) not (shall not). kjv. Different versions of the bible change the wording of scripture which changes the meaning of what is really being said that is the reason I only use the kjv.
You do realise that the KJV is not infallible right? The original KJV had a side bar for possible interpolations and translation errors, so even the KJV writers didn't think it was infallible.

So now I would like you to make a case from the original language that "should" is the correct translation, rather than just appealing to the KJV.

What I get from you is that God says trust me (have faith) and you shall receive eternal life (no strings attached), then you turn around and say but you must do this and this or I take that gift back. It's a pretty simple equation and it equals works based salvation.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#27

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:20 pm

You are right it is faith that saves you not your works. But the bible says "Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. You are only saved if you have faith. So if you lose your faith then you are know longer saved because you have no faith. That is why it is should not shall because you can lose your faith. You shouldn't but you can.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#28

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:30 pm

jpbg33 wrote:You are right it is faith that saves you not your works. But the bible says "Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. You are only saved if you have faith. So if you lose your faith then you are know longer saved because you have no faith. That is why it is should not shall because you can lose your faith. You shouldn't but you can.
It's says faith without works is dead faith, meaning goods works come about because of your faith and a dead faith was no faith to begin with, it doesn't say you have to be perfect in your faith and that your faith is based on works or that you can lose your faith, what it is saying is that you are saved by faith and because of that faith you do good works, not the other way around.


John 3:16
But from my understanding of the Greek the words used are
mḗ ("not") negates the underlying idea (concept) of a statement, ruling out its possibilities,
apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
So "mḗ" negates the underlying idea of the next statement "apóllymi", ruling out its possibilities, so "should not" is incorrect in it's translation of the Greek and shall not is the better translation. Saying "should not" implies that there is still a possibility of that something happening which is not a faithful interpretation of the Greek word "mḗ".
Last edited by Danieltwotwenty on Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#29

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:57 pm

What it says is if your faith has no works then it is dead. You are right we do our works because we have faith. But if we are not doing works then our faith is dead. the Bible says we are justified by faith and works. "Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.".

It has to be "should" not "shall" because the whole bible must agree or its not real and the bible says Christians will not live in sin. "1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.". That is why they put should in the kjv not shall. Because according to the bible your faith can die.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#30

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:04 pm

jpbg33 wrote:What it says is if your faith has no works then it is dead. You are right we do our works because we have faith. But if we are not doing works then our faith is dead. the Bible says we are justified by faith and works. "Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.".

It has to be "should" not "shall" because the whole bible must agree or its not real and the bible says Christians will not live in sin. "1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.". That is why they put should in the kjv not shall. Because according to the bible your faith can die.
The whole Bible does agree with itself, but it does not agree with your interpretation, but you can believe your works will save you, good luck with that. y@};-
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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