Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

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crochet1949
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#541

Post by crochet1949 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:38 am

Our lives as believers Should be showing the Fruits of the Spirit. Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc.

A person doing 'right' should be our goal, yes. But, we need to remember that we are Still sinners, but we are Also saved by grace. But no one becomes Sinless as a result of their salvation.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#542

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:43 pm

RickD wrote:
Jpbg,

First, according to your theology, what must one do to be saved/receive eternal life?
jpbg wrote:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ok. Since I don't want to misrepresent what you believe, please correct me where I'm not accurately describing your position.

So, would you then say that once one believes that God raised Christ from the dead, and confess The Lord Jesus Christ, then at that moment, one is saved/receives eternal life, and the Holy Spirit indwells that person?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#543

Post by BigHamster » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:57 pm

jpbg33 wrote:
BigHamster you are just wrong. The bible says to make your election sure.

2Pe_1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Make your election sure ? How come you kept asking ........ "how dose a person know they are saved" (//discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=40398)

I detect a note of unsureness in you jppg !







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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#544

Post by Jac3510 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:39 pm

We talked about some of this in my last Sunday school class, looked especialy at Lot. One person in the class said, "I'm sure that if Lot had continued in those sins, that would have been proof he wasn't saved." Beyond the fact that there was no textual warrant for his claim that Lot started living a righteous life, I asked the guy,

"So you are saying that even though Lot was a believer, he fell into sins like drunkeness, fornication, incest, and the like?"
"Yes, but we know he repented of them."
"Fine," I asked. "And is not repenting of a sin itself a sin?"
"Absolutely"
"Then how is it that we are free to fall into one sin but we aren't free of falling into this other sin of non-repentance?"

He really didn't have an answer. The only thing a person could say is that the Holy Spirit will necessarily keep believers from that one sin. But, of course, no one thinks they are going to fall into any sin. Lot didn't think he would become an incestuous drunk. He fell into that one. So how could Lot know he wouldn't also fall into the sin of unrepentance? He couldn't know that. And same for us. If we can fall into one sin we didn't think we would, the principle applies that we can fall into ANY sin, including unrepentance. But on this theology, we can't know we are saved, contrary to Scripture.

Side light, the guy came up to me after class and thanked me privately for the explanation. He'd never thought of it that way before.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#545

Post by crochet1949 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:00 pm

The Holy Spirit does Not keep a believer from Any particular sin. He Does convict the person of particular sins, but we Can choose to ignore the prompting of the Holy Spirit. And after a while -- our hearts will become hardened to the urgings of Him. But He is continually working in our lives. If I'm experiencing a desire to go to a tavern and get a drink -- the Holy Spirit probably isn't going to prevent my hand from paying for the drink and keep my hand from putting it to my mouth and drinking it. But, I Can realize my desire isn't good for me and ask God for the power to say No to that desire.
The 'sin' of non-repentence?! A person either repents of a particular sin or keeps on committing it. Isn't 'the sin of non-repentense' sort of like using a double negative?! Repenting of a sin means that we acknowledge it's wrong and want to turn away from it.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#546

Post by Jac3510 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:12 pm

I have no doubt "no-repentance" is a sin -- a double sin, of sorts. He who knows what is right and does not do it, sins. You know it is not only wrong to sin, but you know that if you have sinned or are sinning, you should turn from it. To not do so is sin (just as, in a similar way, to fail to place our faith in Christ is sin). My point is that the Scriptures do not guarantee anywhere that the Holy Spirit will keep us from any particular sin. That is to say, Christians may fall into any sin, and that would include the sin of non-repentance. That is to say, Christians can fail to turn from their sins. They can live a life of sin, ignore the Holy Spirit's conviction, compound their error, and so on. My own view is that such people are still saved. There will be some serious consequences, but hell will not be among them. Other people say that such people get to a point where they forfeit their salvation. That doesn't make any sense to me, but that's fine in that at least they acknowledge the very real possibility that believers can fall into sin and never climb out of it. What is absurd are people who say that all true Christians eventually repent. That's tantamount to saying that the Holy Spirit will let us fall into ANY sin with the sole exception to one and one alone: non-repentance. That's just a silly position to take, not to mention completely unwarranted biblically speaking.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#547

Post by abelcainsbrother » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:28 pm

I believe that God delivers us from sin,however he will leave sin in our lives something we struggle with so that we don't get holier-than-thou and forget that if it was'nt for Jesus we'd be lost and that because of Jesus and what he did he alone justifies us.It keeps us humble.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#548

Post by Philip » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:59 pm

Christians may fall into any sin
What about the sin of unbelief?

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#549

Post by Jac3510 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:12 pm

Philip wrote:
Christians may fall into any sin
What about the sin of unbelief?
Absolutely.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Philip
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#550

Post by Philip » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:20 pm

Philip: What about the sin of unbelief?
Jac: Absolutely.
No, I was thinking more along the lines that they had NEVER believed. No Christian could NEVER have believed in Christ, obviously.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#551

Post by Jac3510 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:38 pm

Then they would simply never have been a Christian. A Christian, by definition, is someone who has believed in Christ.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#552

Post by Philip » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:27 pm

Jac: Then they would simply never have been a Christian. A Christian, by definition, is someone who has believed in Christ.
So, you would assert that it is possible for a person to have believed in Christ/became saved, but later stopped believing, but nonetheless remains saved, despite no longer believing?

Of course, IF this happens, one would have no way of knowing whether the person had actually every been saved to begin with.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#553

Post by Jac3510 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:40 pm

Of course that's what I would say, Philip. It's not like they lose their salvation. To suggest otherwise is to say that people die again who were once alive spiritually. It's really just an absurd position to take. As to your second point, very strictly, there is no way of knowing if ANYBODY has ever actually been saved. I don't know what is in your heart. For all I know you have been trolling us for all these years. But if I accept that you have ever told the truth, then I do know that you are saved. And if tomorrow you become a raving atheist, I'll still say that I know that you are saved. Why? Because the logic is necessary. If Phil ever believed in Jesus, then he has everlasting life. Phil believed in Christ. Therefore, Phil has everlasting life. The irony of your implied argument here is that if we say that if a person falls away from belief then that's evidence they were never saved to begin with, then the real fact is that you yourself, right now where you sit reading this, cannot know that you are saved. Because you don't know the future, and therefore, you could fall away proving that your faith is some sort of false/spurious faith, that you are deceived, that you are hell bound and don't realize it. Such a position is stupid, of course, but it is the necessary result of claiming that true Christians cannot fall away.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#554

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:58 am

My phone battery went down yesterday just as I was making a comment. So I had to wait until today and I wasn't going to because it had moved so far along but reading some of these comments I have to.

First to answer RickD question I do believe that we get eternal life when we are saved.

second we are not sinners after we are saved I do not know were the saying "we are saved sinners" comes from it is not from the bible.
The bible says that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. that mean we were sinners but now we are not.

Rom_5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I do not see where the bible says Lot was a Christian

God will not keep us from being tempted but He keep us from being tempted above that we are able and when we are tempted He will always make a way to escape for us.
One thought on that is if it doesn't mater if we sin then there would be no need for a way of escape (just thinking aloud).

1Co_10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I know that some do not believe that The Parable of the Sower is about Christians falling away and that is where you are wrong I ma not going to debate you on that because that is nonsense I will say it is and you will say it isn't. You have to say it isn't to believe in osas. So I am not debating that but what I will say is that if all you have to do is believe to be saved than people in the parable who believe and then later stop believing were saved when they believed. In this parable Jesus said they believed so if it is by faith alone like what y'all are shouting (I also believe it is by faith alone) then who ever Jesus was talking about had to be saved because He said they believed. So the fact of whether or not they believed or not is settled by Jesus. He said they believed. Not only did He say they believed but He said that they Believed for a while then later stopped believing. So according to Jesus you can believe and then later stop believing.

Luk_8:13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

What dose this mean then if we can stop believing? Well I will tell you.

If you believe in Jesus you have everlasting life but if you stop believing then you do not

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

the Bible dose not say if you ever believed than you have everlasting life but if you presently believe. that is why it is using the present tense form "believeth". If the bible meant that all you had to do was believe at one time in your life and you would go to heaven then it would have said "He that believed on the Son hath everlasting life" but it didn't say that it said "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life".

What people are not understanding believing and not believing are not works as in we are not saved by works. If they were works then we would be saved by works because the bible say we must believe on Jesus to be saved, but we are not saved by works so believing or not believing are not works. If you believe then you have everlasting life if you do not believe then you do not have everlasting life.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#555

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:31 pm

jpbg33 wrote:I do not see where the bible says Lot was a Christian
2 Pet 2:7-9
So according to Jesus you can believe and then later stop believing.

Correct. But where you are wrong is in saying that OSAS folks don't think the passage is about Christians falling away. That's exactly what we say it is about. As you note Luke 8:13 makes it clear that believers can stop believing. People who say that believers cannot stop believing are not taking Jesus' words seriously. As far as what happens when they stop believing, the text itself tells you. You don't have to go outside of it. They don't bear fruit. THAT is what happens. Anything other than that and you are adding to the text.
the Bible dose not say if you ever believed than you have everlasting life but if you presently believe. that is why it is using the present tense form "believeth". If the bible meant that all you had to do was believe at one time in your life and you would go to heaven then it would have said "He that believed on the Son hath everlasting life" but it didn't say that it said "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life".
That's not how Greek tense works. You are just factually wrong on this.

Beyond the grammatical misunderstanding, the text does say that whoever believes has, in the present moment, everlasting life. Not will have: has. To have life is to be alive. To not have life is to be dead. (So cf John 5:24.) You are saying that a person is is eternally alive can die, and that is a contradiction in terms. Again, you are saying that a person who has passed out of death and into eternal life can now pass back into death. That is a contradiction in terms. You are looking at life as a commodity, something we possess. As such, you are making what is called a category error (or, in another way, you are committing what is called a four-term fallacy). To have life is not the same idea as to have a car or to have a cold. "To have life" is simply a way of saying that you are, in fact, alive. Life is the principle whereby there is a you to have anything at all. To illustrate, if life were nothing but a commodity, then it would make no sense to talk about "you" having this thing called "life," because prior to having life, there would be no "you" to have it in the first place. In this sense, "life" is very much like "existence." Consider the sentence, "I have existence." We can say that and we know on some level what it means, but you can surely see that it's really a redundant statement, because without existence, there is no "you" to have it at all! And just so with life.

So life isn't the kind of thing that can be had or lost like a commodity. The moment you believe in Christ, you are made eternally alive. And therefore, by definition, you cannot ever die. To say that when you stop believing you die is to say that the life that you had was not eternal in the first place because it is to say that you were never eternally living in the first place. Therefore, on your theology, when we believe, we do not HAVE (present tense) everlasting life, but rather WILL HAVE (future) everlasting life. But that isn't what the text says, and therefore, you simply do not believe Jesus' own words.
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crochet1949 (Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:21 pm)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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