Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
jpbg33
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Re: Eternal Security...

#376

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:56 pm

there is a battle in our live with the flesh and the spirit and the bible says that if we walk after the spirit we will not fulfill the lost of the flesh.
not only that but we are suppose to put on the new man which makes it easier to not sin. if we walk after the flesh we will end up sinning but if we love God then it will not be a willful sin but we will sin because our flesh is to weak to overcome the world. Then after we sin if we do not repent then it becomes a willful sin and that is when I believe you backslid, but if you can not backslid. Then if you are a Christian you will repent of the sin you have committed that wasn't willful. You sinned because your flesh was overcome not because you thought it was ok to sin.

Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

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Re: Eternal Security...

#377

Post by LittleHamster » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:34 pm

I remember an old guy from a weird denominational church always come up to me and say (with great excitement in his voice)...

"You're already there......You're already there........You're already there !!!"

What was he on about ???

He was saying that being 'born again' in spirit means you are already eternally in Heaven (and probably not aware of it).

Hence the passages.....

Eph. 1:3; 2:6 'They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ'

Eph. 4:30; Rom. 8:23 'They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption'

Col. 3:1-3 'Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God'

John 10:28 'His sheep have been given eternal life—they shall never perish'.

Note that "what you sow is what you reap" still applies to you on earth, so you don't get an automatic exemption to sin all you want. In fact, God still gives you a big ass-whooping if you step out of line and it is usually for the purpose of teaching you a valuable lesson.
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Re: Eternal Security...

#378

Post by B. W. » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:42 pm

LittleHamster wrote:...Note that "what you sow is what you reap" still applies to you on earth, so you don't get an automatic exemption to sin all you want. In fact, God still gives you a big ass-whooping if you step out of line and it is usually for the purpose of teaching you a valuable lesson.
Now, that is an answer we can shout amen too!
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Re: Eternal Security...

#379

Post by Rob » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:54 am

jpbg33 wrote: I do love God with all my heart body and soul all the time.
I hope you realize that this is actually impossible for us to do. Each one of us every single day unintentionally forgets to love God with all our hearts, souls, and minds. Since we fail at keeping this commandment every day, we are constantly in need of the grace of Christ. It's not "ok" which is why we need constant grace.

Willful or not, sin is still sin- a violation or failure to keep God's commandments. You don't seem to be going as far as your Pelagian brethren go in saying that unintentional sin isn't sin. That's good.

No one here has ever said it's "ok" to sin. We keep repeating that over and over again, but it seems to just go in one ear and out the other when you say something like "it's not ok for Christians to go around sinning."

In my theology, Jesus pulls me up out of the pit of sin and covers me with Himself so that the father will see me as He sees the Son. We try not to sin not to keep our salvation, but because we love God.
In your theology, Jesus gives you a ladder and then stands waiting to kick it out from under you whenever you have trouble hanging on.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#380

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:27 am

Y'all have some right but the most important parts wrong.

I agree we do not stop sinning to keep salvation but we stop sinning because we love God.

that is the only part you have right.

One thing you have wrong is if we are Christians we do not stop loving God every ones and a while and that is why we sin.

if you do not love God all the time while you are saved you do not love God at all. your love for God is suppose to be greater then the love you have for anyone your mom dad and your wife or husband. So you mean to tell me that every time you unwillfully hurt your wife or you husband that you are doing that because you do not love them? That is not right. Sometimes we hurt people unintentionally it doesn't mean we do not love them.

the logic that you do not love God sometimes is way wrong. if you are a Christian you will love God with all your heart or you are not a Christian.

if you commit a sin that was not a willful sin then that dose not mean you do not love God. That just means you were following the flesh not the Spirit.

but if you sin willfully then you do not love God big difference

the bible says we follow the spirit so that we do not sin and if we are following the spirit then we will not sin.

the bible did not say it was a sin to not follow the spirit but that if we do not follow the spirit then we would sin because our flesh is week.

The grace of God only keeps us from sin we commit out of ignorants or sin that we commit that are not willful but the bible say you go to hell if you commit willful sins after you are saved. 'hint no more sacrifice'

I know you wont to say that God was talking about false prophets in the book of Peter yes he was and the doctrine that the false prophet was teaching was that you could sin after you were saved that you would not go to hell for those sins 'hint' he was a false prophet that meant that what he was teaching was wrong. You do go to hell for sins you commit after you are saved if they are willful and what the bible was saying was that if people go around preaching that it is ok to sin willfully after you are saved that teaching is false 'hint again false prophet' and if you get entangled in sin after God freed you from it then you would go to hell.


Unlike what y'all are say God blots people name out of the book of life if they do not overcome the world

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Here God said that the only ones He will not blot out is the ones that overcome so if you do not overcome you will not make it.

the bible says that if your name is not in the book of life then you will go to hell or the lake of fire.

the bible says that you go to heaven if you ender to the end.

really it come down to Y'all have it all right at lest the part about being saved but one thing you backslid when you willfully sin. the bible say there is no more sacrifice for your sins if you willfully sin. the only ones that the grace of God is protecting from sin is Christians so it had to be talking to saved people.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#381

Post by B. W. » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:54 am

jpbg33 wrote:Y'all have some right but the most important parts wrong.

I agree we do not stop sinning to keep salvation but we stop sinning because we love God.

that is the only part you have right.

One thing you have wrong is if we are Christians we do not stop loving God every ones and a while and that is why we sin.

if you do not love God all the time while you are saved you do not love God at all. your love for God is suppose to be greater then the love you have for anyone your mom dad and your wife or husband. So you mean to tell me that every time you unwillfully hurt your wife or you husband that you are doing that because you do not love them? That is not right. Sometimes we hurt people unintentionally it doesn't mean we do not love them.

the logic that you do not love God sometimes is way wrong. if you are a Christian you will love God with all your heart or you are not a Christian.

if you commit a sin that was not a willful sin then that dose not mean you do not love God. That just means you were following the flesh not the Spirit.

but if you sin willfully then you do not love God big difference

the bible says we follow the spirit so that we do not sin and if we are following the spirit then we will not sin.

the bible did not say it was a sin to not follow the spirit but that if we do not follow the spirit then we would sin because our flesh is week.

The grace of God only keeps us from sin we commit out of ignorants or sin that we commit that are not willful but the bible say you go to hell if you commit willful sins after you are saved. 'hint no more sacrifice'

I know you wont to say that God was talking about false prophets in the book of Peter yes he was and the doctrine that the false prophet was teaching was that you could sin after you were saved that you would not go to hell for those sins 'hint' he was a false prophet that meant that what he was teaching was wrong. You do go to hell for sins you commit after you are saved if they are willful and what the bible was saying was that if people go around preaching that it is ok to sin willfully after you are saved that teaching is false 'hint again false prophet' and if you get entangled in sin after God freed you from it then you would go to hell.


Unlike what y'all are say God blots people name out of the book of life if they do not overcome the world

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Here God said that the only ones He will not blot out is the ones that overcome so if you do not overcome you will not make it.

the bible says that if your name is not in the book of life then you will go to hell or the lake of fire.

the bible says that you go to heaven if you ender to the end.

really it come down to Y'all have it all right at lest the part about being saved but one thing you backslid when you willfully sin. the bible say there is no more sacrifice for your sins if you willfully sin. the only ones that the grace of God is protecting from sin is Christians so it had to be talking to saved people.
Again, you are stating that one must rely on what they do and not what God has done and is more than able to do to ensure John 6:37.

You stated that one must love God all the time or else...

WE agree on the reality of loving God, however, you gave no definition or clarity defining what Love is. The way you state is, is that one must work really hard at loving God all the time. Fact is, you do not work love up in order to Love God.

The scripture is clear, we love God because he first loved us as the Apostle John stated. His loves actual helps develop our love for God on a day by day basis. Sometimes, we get mad at God for various reasons and yet when we do, does God toss us out the door? The answer is NO. Instead, he works within us through the trials of life that caused our anger, never letting us go. In this, we learn daily that he really does first love us before we can love him.

The way you state it is that - this is impossible for God to do as it is all based on us must loving God first so he can love us. The is a condition and I pray that you see that!

Eph 1:13 ESV, Eph 1:14 ESV Is true and in that is God's love, which s unfailing I might add...

It is because of his unfailing love, when our love fails due to life's trials, he can never let us go, changing us one step and day at a time to be his people as John 10:28,29,30 states.

His love shown by grace indeed instructs to let go of sins (how we stray into dysfunction) and those who are his, by him naturally working within, doing the work within us - cleaning us up. We will find change comes naturally and without toil. It is rest. His yoke is easy and burden is light. Those who do not find this change naturally happening were never his to begin with, plain and simple. The Good News is that they can still come to Jesus Christ before their time to depart this mortal life.

We cannot gin-up enough love to keep ourselves saved. That fails. What does not fail is God's unfailing love and with that we step by step learn to love God more and more each passing day and find ourselves transformed by it because he never lets his people go. In that we love God because he truly first loved us.

Can you see that jpbg33?
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Re: Eternal Security...

#382

Post by Rob » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:58 am

jpbg33 wrote: One thing you have wrong is if we are Christians we do not stop loving God every ones and a while and that is why we sin.

if you do not love God all the time while you are saved you do not love God at all. your love for God is suppose to be greater then the love you have for anyone your mom dad and your wife or husband. So you mean to tell me that every time you unwillfully hurt your wife or you husband that you are doing that because you do not love them? That is not right. Sometimes we hurt people unintentionally it doesn't mean we do not love them.

the logic that you do not love God sometimes is way wrong. if you are a Christian you will love God with all your heart or you are not a Christian.
And you completely miss the point, unsurprisingly.
The command of Jesus is to not only love God all the time. I would never say at any point that I don't love God. The command is to love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. It isn't "Love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind some of the time."
That means that at all times you are to be focused on loving God without being distracted by anything. This is an impossibility because of the very nature of what we are.

Please explain how you can love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind every minute of every day. I'd love to hear how you do it since you say you can go a whole week without sinning. That's superhuman.
jpbg33 wrote: if you commit a sin that was not a willful sin then that dose not mean you do not love God. That just means you were following the flesh not the Spirit.

but if you sin willfully then you do not love God big difference
So is it not still a sin then? Are some sins not as bad as others in God's eyes? Does an unintentional sin not also separate us from God? If that's the case, then why did God command sacrifices for unintentional sins in the Old Testament?
jpbg33 wrote: the bible says we follow the spirit so that we do not sin and if we are following the spirit then we will not sin.
Yes. Until you don't and then sin.
jpbg33 wrote: the bible did not say it was a sin to not follow the spirit but that if we do not follow the spirit then we would sin because our flesh is week.
If you're not following the spirit wouldn't you say that your're not loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind then? That's a sin, my friend.
jpbg33 wrote: The grace of God only keeps us from sin we commit out of ignorants or sin that we commit that are not willful but the bible say you go to hell if you commit willful sins after you are saved. 'hint no more sacrifice'
You're so abysmally wrong that it's kind of sad.
jpbg33 wrote: I know you wont to say that God was talking about false prophets in the book of Peter yes he was and the doctrine that the false prophet was teaching was that you could sin after you were saved that you would not go to hell for those sins 'hint' he was a false prophet that meant that what he was teaching was wrong. You do go to hell for sins you commit after you are saved if they are willful and what the bible was saying was that if people go around preaching that it is ok to sin willfully after you are saved that teaching is false 'hint again false prophet' and if you get entangled in sin after God freed you from it then you would go to hell.
You are teaching a different gospel other than grace through faith and should rightly be declared anathema. You are assigning works to faith and defining it differently.
jpbg33 wrote: Unlike what y'all are say God blots people name out of the book of life if they do not overcome the world
Please show me where Jesus says: "If you sin I will blot out your name from the book of life." He must be constantly running out of whiteout up there since he's constantly adding and removing people from the book of life according to you. Your salvation is entirely performance based and it is absolute heresy. Further than that I'd even call it blasphemy as your version of Jesus isn't strong enough to save anybody.
jpbg33 wrote: Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
I fail to see how this has relevance to not ever sinning after being saved. You should probably read it again without your blinders fully engaged.
jpbg33 wrote: really it come down to Y'all have it all right at lest the part about being saved but one thing you backslid when you willfully sin. the bible say there is no more sacrifice for your sins if you willfully sin. the only ones that the grace of God is protecting from sin is Christians so it had to be talking to saved people.
Yes, protecting from sin. Not protecting them from ever sinning.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#383

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:28 am

I did not say we do to love God I said we love God so we do. So your whole post doesn't make any sense because your whole post is about me saying that you have to do something to love God. I didn't say anything like that I said sense you love God you do good not that you do good to love God. that would be insane.

I know we could not love him first He had to love us for us to be able to love him.
being angry is not a sin the bible say to be angry and sin not

Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Co_7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1Jn_2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Jn_3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn_1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
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Re: Eternal Security...

#384

Post by Rob » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:48 am

I think a big part of the problem here is that there is an apparent language barrier. That's sad since we all speak English. I don't mean this offensively, but it's very difficult to understand your posts because your spelling, grammar, and post structures are really really terrible. Sometimes I don't even know some of the words you're trying to write until I say them aloud because the spelling is terrible.
I'm not saying you're stupid. You can be smart and have difficulty spelling, but it does make this more difficult.

You need to repent because of your false gospel. It is works based. You keep trying to explain it and it comes out as works based every single time. An example would be like "I'm not saying it's works based, but it is determined by your performance."
I understand you're not saying those specific words, but you keep talking in circles and can't seem to really decide whether or not it is works based or not. On one hand you say it isn't, but then the rest of your words affirm that it is indeed works (performance) based.

You're also guilty of doing the exact thing you accuse us of doing. You cite scriptures that appear (at face value) to support your theology, but then you never mention the verses that say otherwise. You're not taking the whole Bible into account as you say you are, just the verses that support your view.

You also should probably read more material on views different than your own and why. There is a reason your (semi?)Pelagian position is viewed as heresy. Sure, you could throw the "narrow is the gate and few that find it" verse at me to try and justify why your position is an extreme minority, but I've found that every little heresy cult that pops up with a wacky view uses that same justification.

To sum up our views again in simple terms:

You believe that Christ starts your salvation and lets you finish it.
I believe Christ starts, supports, and finishes my salvation.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#385

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:52 am

jpbg33 wrote:
that is making us stuck on the same things and we keep having to go round and round because I have to explain how I am not say what y'all are saying I am saying.


Please Rob, I beg...implore you... to stop y=; .... I know it's my fault for coming back but it's like a 20 car pileup and not being guilty of gazing :shakehead:
... maybe glazing :esurprised: over ...
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: Eternal Security...

#386

Post by Rob » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:26 am

Fine. I will respectfully bow out then if everyone is annoyed. My views are clear. This thread has run its course.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#387

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:55 am

I am not saying faith is indeed works (performance) based

I am saying that faith is not real if faith if it doesn't produce good works

because real faith produces good works

someone doesn't understand what I am saying. Ask me and I will clarify it. Don't just go out and say I am saying something that I am not saying.

I'm not cherry picking I'm showing that there is a lot in the bible that say Christians are not to be sinning.

y'all have only show me a few verses that you think supports your view. If I am cherry picking then y'all must be not only cherry picking but pick out only the cherries that you like.

I'm doing the same with y'alls post when they get long and it is not because it is hard to read but because our believes are different and I have to think about what y'all are saying to understand what you mean by it. My post may be harder to read my spelling is dad and so is my grammar but it was good enough to get in to college with it. So it should be easy enough to read the differents in believe is what makes it hard. I do not get mad if you do not under stand my post. Some times when I read over it I don't even understand it completely and that is why I edit it after I post it some times. The biggest problem I believe I have is that while I am type I'm post I am thinking it in my head and I end up typing only part of what I ma thinking. I try to catch it when it happens but I do not always catch it. And I apologize for saying B. W. needs to repent for lying when I said that I was referring to his post. I said that because it sounded to me like you did not agree with me so you dismissed what I was saying and said I was saying something I wasn't. To make my post look foolish, but maybe you just miss under stud. I like how most of you are commenting about my post and I normally like B. W. post but that one just hit me wrong because it sounded like you was intentionally twisting my word, you probably wasn't.
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Re: Eternal Security...

#388

Post by RickD » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:16 am

Shoot me, I'm a glutton for punishment. Just this one last time. I promise. y:^o
Jpbg wrote:
I am saying that faith is not real if faith if it doesn't produce good works
Jpbg,

Let me make an argument from what you wrote. Tell me if it's not accurate.

1) Saving faith equals real faith

2) one who produces good works has a saving faith

3) one who does not produce good works, does not have saving faith

4) one must produce good works in order to be saved

Is that an accurate representation of what you're saying?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Eternal Security...

#389

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:27 am

You have what I believe all but #4

I think good works is evidence that we have faith not a requirement to be saved.

I believe faith is like fire. If there is smoke then it is safe to say there is fire. The fire is not fire because of the smoke, but the smoke is there because of the fire.

faith is not faith because of the good work, but the good works are there because of the faith.

#4 one who's faith produces good works, has saving faith

I believe it like this

If fire is in a house smoke will come out

If saving faith is in a person good works will come out

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Re: Eternal Security...

#390

Post by RickD » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:01 pm

jpbg,

By saying this:
jpbg wrote:
I think good works is evidence that we have faith not a requirement to be saved.
and
If fire is in a house smoke will come out

If saving faith is in a person good works will come out
You are saying that good works will always come out of one who is saved.

And also, by saying this:
I am saying that faith is not real if faith if it doesn't produce good works
You are saying that if someone does not produce good works, his faith is not real. Or, he is not saved.

I'm trying to show you from your words, what you are saying. I'm not changing your words. I'm taking the plain meaning of your own words to show you that by saying:

1) If saving faith is in a person good works will come out
and
2) I am saying that faith is not real if faith if it doesn't produce good works

If one produces good works, one is saved. If one does not produce good works, one is not saved.


You are making good works a condition of salvation. And that means you are promoting a works based salvation, and a heresy.

I cannot understand how you are the only person that has posted on this thread, who does not understand what you are saying. Doesn't that mean anything to you? Everyone else CLEARLY sees what you are saying.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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