Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Re: Eternal Security...

#361

Post by RickD » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:53 am

Jpbg33,

If you want to be stuck in a performance based religion, go ahead. It's your choice. But I just need to correct one thing you wrote:
If you think about what osas says is true then you would see that there is no real assurance of any kind. In osas you might be saved but you might not you may just think you are saved. Because how do you really know you are saved. I guess osao say they know there saved because they fill saved in there heart, but the bible says "Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? ". So in osao you could go your whole life thinking you are saved and not really be.
You have no idea what you are talking about. You completely misunderstand what osas is. OSAS stands for Once Saved Always Saved. It means that once one trusts in Christ for salvation, one is secure in God. God will not break His promise that He will keep you secure.

OSAS does not mean that people think they are saved because they feel they are saved in their heart. The assurance is in God's promise. Not in how we feel.

So, if you are going to disagree with OSAS, please make an effort to understand it first.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#362

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:08 am

jpbg33 wrote:

but it you say you are saved and are going around living a sinful life you are not saved.
Because Christian do not live sinful lives.


jpbgg33 all people sin throughout all their lives. It's who we are and how we relegated ourselves to be since the fall. I don't care who you think of as the best example of sinless man, your wrong... we cannot claim ourselves without sin.

Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as
God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you

You wrote both of these down ... and you must stand by one or the other, because claiming both is irreconcilable. There is no reason for God to forgive if Christians don't sin.

Confession of one's sin is the only alternative. Confessing your sin (sinning, which we do daily) with good intent, acknowledging our weakness, is exactly what God wants IMO to gain entry in to His abode, heaven. Now it is certainly true that the closer your relationship with Him correlates to the amount of sin you do.... presumably much less. However, IMO and in what I have found to be true for me is the closer I get the more I realize the more strict His definition of sin is.

IE: the sin of anger is akin to murder in the eyes of God ... ever been angry ? It's quite a conundrum, as it seems to me all of God's plan is. The more you know the more you'll be held responsible for, but the better equipped you are for confessing and returning to His love that will in turn be showered on to all who come in contact with you because of your closer relationship with God that rubs off from you to another for the very fact of your experience with Him.

y#-o pheeeww does that make sense to you ?
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: Eternal Security...

#363

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:39 am

well that is what y'all have been saying this whole time. I said that Christians do not go around sinning all the time because the bible says Christians sinneth not.
then Y'all responded by saying that just because someone says they were saved that they may not have really been saved that sometimes people just think they got saved. So what you are saying now is contradicting what you have been saying earlier because you are saying that if you accept Jesus in to your life then you are saved. so how do you know you really got saved your that you think you got saved

I know how I know I got saved it is because I have the strength to keep Gods commandments. and that is exactly how the bible say you know if you got saved or not.

Jesus says to be perfect and we can be perfect by our faith and by works our faith is made perfect. So if we do what we know to do then in Gods eyes we are perfect.

and Jesus said to be perfect

Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

1Ti_6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

all those verses say we must keep his commandments y'all are over looking them because y'all do not want to see the truth

I will agree with you on one thing that the closer we get to God the less sin we will commit. That is because when we first get saved we do not know everything that God says is sin so we are sinning in ignorants and the more we grow in Christ the more we know how we should live so the less we will sin but if we willfully sin after we are saved there is no more sacrifice for our sins but a fearful looking foreword to the judgment of God.


just because we have to forgive does not mean it is ok to sin.


Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Just because we have to forgive one another dose not mean it is ok to sin. What it mean is we are humans and sometimes we may mess up and make a mistake and if someone makes a mistake and hurts you then you must forgive them or God will not forgive your sins.

this is a writing of where Jesus said that a servant owed a whole lot of money to his master and his master forgave him of his debt then that same servant that was forgiven of a great debt found a servant of his that owed a small debt and he made his servant pay him back even though he had been forgiven of a much bigger debt. then his master came and took bake his forgiveness and imprisoned him until he paid back every thing he owed. So when the bible said that God would not forgive you if you do not forgive others what it is saying is that if you do not forgive others an God will take his forgiveness back and you will no longer be forgiven of the sins that you were forgiven of.

that is another thing that says osas in wrong. I see what you are saying that when you are saved that God forgive you of past present and future sins that isn't true though the bible say he forgive you of sins that are past not future sins

and God said that if you do not forgive others then he will not forgive you so if you say you are saved and you do not forgive others than the bible says God will not forgive you and if you have unforgiven sin in your heart when you die you are going to hell.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#364

Post by Storyteller » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:46 am

I give up.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Eternal Security...

#365

Post by Rob » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:10 pm

Storyteller wrote:I give up.
Yep. Been there. Got the T-shirt.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#366

Post by RickD » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:18 pm

jpbg33 wrote:well that is what y'all have been saying this whole time. I said that Christians do not go around sinning all the time because the bible says Christians sinneth not.
then Y'all responded by saying that just because someone says they were saved that they may not have really been saved that sometimes people just think they got saved. So what you are saying now is contradicting what you have been saying earlier because you are saying that if you accept Jesus in to your life then you are saved. so how do you know you really got saved your that you think you got saved

I know how I know I got saved it is because I have the strength to keep Gods commandments. and that is exactly how the bible say you know if you got saved or not.

Jesus says to be perfect and we can be perfect by our faith and by works our faith is made perfect. So if we do what we know to do then in Gods eyes we are perfect.

and Jesus said to be perfect

Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

1Ti_6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

all those verses say we must keep his commandments y'all are over looking them because y'all do not want to see the truth

I will agree with you on one thing that the closer we get to God the less sin we will commit. That is because when we first get saved we do not know everything that God says is sin so we are sinning in ignorants and the more we grow in Christ the more we know how we should live so the less we will sin but if we willfully sin after we are saved there is no more sacrifice for our sins but a fearful looking foreword to the judgment of God.


just because we have to forgive does not mean it is ok to sin.


Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Just because we have to forgive one another dose not mean it is ok to sin. What it mean is we are humans and sometimes we may mess up and make a mistake and if someone makes a mistake and hurts you then you must forgive them or God will not forgive your sins.

this is a writing of where Jesus said that a servant owed a whole lot of money to his master and his master forgave him of his debt then that same servant that was forgiven of a great debt found a servant of his that owed a small debt and he made his servant pay him back even though he had been forgiven of a much bigger debt. then his master came and took bake his forgiveness and imprisoned him until he paid back every thing he owed. So when the bible said that God would not forgive you if you do not forgive others what it is saying is that if you do not forgive others an God will take his forgiveness back and you will no longer be forgiven of the sins that you were forgiven of.

that is another thing that says osas in wrong. I see what you are saying that when you are saved that God forgive you of past present and future sins that isn't true though the bible say he forgive you of sins that are past not future sins

and God said that if you do not forgive others then he will not forgive you so if you say you are saved and you do not forgive others than the bible says God will not forgive you and if you have unforgiven sin in your heart when you die you are going to hell.
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John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...

#367

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:15 pm

I'm sorry but I would not keep debating if y'all wouldn't keep dismissing everything. instead of explaining how something fits osas y'all are dismissing them but for me to agree with you you must fit it all together with out explaining something away that the bible says. I will never agree with something that leaves our part of the bible.
believing osas is fine if you say you will not willfully sin after you are saved. You may sin but it wont be willfully. but to say that osao is right and it doesn't matter what you do after you are saved even though the bible says Christians will not sin I can not agree with that. The bible say for Christians to shun the very appearance of evil and to say it is ok to sin after you are saved is not shunning.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#368

Post by 1over137 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:24 pm

Who says it is ok to sin?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Eternal Security...

#369

Post by RickD » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:30 pm

jpbg33 wrote:I'm sorry but I would not keep debating if y'all wouldn't keep dismissing everything. instead of explaining how something fits osas y'all are dismissing them but for me to agree with you you must fit it all together with out explaining something away that the bible says. I will never agree with something that leaves our part of the bible.
believing osas is fine if you say you will not willfully sin after you are saved. You may sin but it wont be willfully. but to say that osao is right and it doesn't matter what you do after you are saved even though the bible says Christians will not sin I can not agree with that. The bible say for Christians to shun the very appearance of evil and to say it is ok to sin after you are saved is not shunning.
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John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...

#370

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:05 pm

Not everyone but most are I am saying that if you are saved you will not be willfully living in sin you may sin it will not be willfully. I am not say you will not ever sin but anyone can go at least a week with out sinning and bible says it is possible to live without sinning after you are saved but we are humans and most likely will sin but we do not have to.

I am not say that osas is wrong but how it is being presented is. I am fine with it being right it may be right and I know that I said it was wrong in my argument but I was referring to the way it is being presented.

I believe if osas is right then you will not willfully sin after you are saved the bible says " Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.". So if osao is right then yes we have grace if we sin after we are saved but not if we sin willfully that is not what grace is for. Grace is for sin that we commit in ignorance not because it is ok to sin. If osas is right and you fill it is ok to sin then you are not saved. unlike what people say about not being under the law so it is ok to sin. The bible explains what it means to not be under the law we are not under the law but God writes the law on our heart so that we wont to do what is in the law on our on so that we prove that the law was right. Because that is how real Christians wont to live. So you are right we are not save because we do not sin but if we are saved we will not sin willfully because if you desire to sin then you are not saved.





I really like this chapter I am not debating with this chapter I was just reading it and I really like it so I put it on here for everyone else to read.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#371

Post by Rob » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:24 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU
jpbg33 wrote:Not everyone but most are I am saying that if you are saved you will not be willfully living in sin you may sin it will not be willfully. I am not say you will not ever sin but anyone can go at least a week with out sinning and bible says it is possible to live without sinning after you are saved but we are humans and most likely will sin but we do not have to.
Everyone here agrees that we shouldn't willfully sin. You're the one with the wacky idea that you will go straight to hell if you die with a sin you've forgotten or haven't had the chance to ask forgiveness for.

In order to not sin after being saved, then you have to redefine what sin is. I'm guessing this is exactly what you do.

You keep avoiding a question that I would like you to please answer:
Do you love God with all your heart, soul, and mind every minute of every day without ever forgetting? Even unintentionally?

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Re: Eternal Security...

#372

Post by RickD » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:41 pm

jpbg wrote:
... I am not say you will not ever sin but anyone can go at least a week with out sinning...
I don't know why this stood out to me more than the rest of your post.


Anyone can go a week without sinning...

:flush:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
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Re: Eternal Security...

#373

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:59 pm

Sense I accepted Jesus I have not live sinless nor do I believe that there has been many that have but I believe that you can because the bible says God give us the strength to over come the world but that dose not mean we will it just means that we can.

I do love God with all my heart body and soul all the time. But sometime I like peter look to the thing around me and even though I do love God I get tripped up and do thing I know that God is not pleased with, and when I do realize my mistake I ask God to forgive me and turn from that sin because I love God and do not wont to displease him. I do not go out and sin just to sin nor do I fill that it is ok to sin. We all sin but Christians do not sin willfully. I believe that the Grace of God is for sins that we do unwillfully. Like sin we do that we do not know are sins or sins we do when we get distracted and get our eyes momentarily off God, but not willful sins and I believe that a distracted sin becomes a willful sin if you do not repent of it when we get the chance. I also believe that God will give you a chance to repent if it isn't a willful sin. I believe in almost no quinsadinses. I believe that almost every thing happens for a reason. time and chance happens to everyone so there are some quinsadinses but most every thing in our live are done for a reason. So I believe if God doesn't give you a chance to repent than it must of been a willful sin.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#374

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:02 pm

the bible says that if we are Christians we will not wont to sin that he put it in our hearts to wont to do right when you are saved. So you can't even go a week with out doing something you do not like. I'm talking about willful sins not unwillful sins.

I forgot to post this earlier it is not a sin to be angry the bible says to be angry but sin not. It is not a sin to be angry it is what you do after you are angry that can be a sin.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#375

Post by RickD » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:37 pm

jpbg33 wrote:the bible says that if we are Christians we will not wont to sin that he put it in our hearts to wont to do right when you are saved. So you can't even go a week with out doing something you do not like. I'm talking about willful sins not unwillful sins.
Do you understand a believer has an ongoing battle between the flesh, and the spirit?

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Until a believer dies, he will always have the sin nature(flesh) fighting against the spirit.

A lot of your contradictions may stem from your misunderstanding that.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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